Let's talk asbestos curtains

[BillConnerFASTC]

here's another restored and encapsulated painted asbestos fire curtain: https://www.historictheatrephotos.com/Theatre/Pasadena-Civic-Los-Angeles.aspx

near middle of that page with photos:
"The theatre retains its original fire curtain which is painted to harmonize with the auditorium and ceiling decoration.

In 1968 a fire at the electrical switchboard (Downstage Right) scorched the fire curtain however temporary repairs were made. It was not until 2019 that the fire curtain was fully repaired which included repairing and repainting of the damaged section in addition to encapsulation of the asbestos fibers within the historic fire curtain."


Aaron - I think you have a good case for preservation based on precedents, with some updating of the rigging perhaps.

Not real cheap but a lot of convenience and more complaint would be to add a motor to your existing rig (assuming its all safe). Balance for curtain heavy and motor covers 500 or so pounds, with emergency release a clutch like device. The motor just makes it much easier to regularly close and open and for periodic testing, compared to overbalancing.

 

[RickBoychuk]

So the down time at our theatre allow me some time to do some repairs to the rigging and bring in our fire curtain for the fist time in almost 12 years. Of course this raises questions of how much we "could/should" operate this safely.

I've searched and searched and in previous threads for some opinions on things I was wondering though the discussion often is focused on the need of fire curtains and possible replacement options. The financial reality for us is there is no options for this at this time. So we have what we have, it's historically significant to our building and honestly a beautiful piece of artwork.

I've suggested and have some mild push back, to running the curtain monthly for testing. Given the historic nature and the artwork I though inviting our members to come see it when it's in would be a nice event for them.
I've also pondered about the idea of using this for non-show events. I.E. board meeting on the thrust, if it coincides with when a test was near due I could have it in for that meeting. The idea being we only move the curtain during 'unoccupied' times but that it can be in when occupied for observation by the public.

Here is the oral history I know of (paperwork not being something this organization is good at):

-All indications is this is original (1920's) but if not it would date back to the 50's/60's so it's most certainly asbestos.
-It is believed that when this was last operational the curtain was coated by 'someone' declared it would not be safe to use outside a fire.
-Funny enough, shortly after that declaration, it was re-weighted balanced and is used as a show curtain for several shows.
-These past few weeks I've inspected all the lines, replaced the purchase lines and we successfully tested and repaired the arbor tracks as needed for smooth operation.

I'd like to pose a few questions specifically around the asbestos nature of the curtain and how that could be dangerous.

1) If actually coated about 12 years ago (we've started a paperwork hunt) how effective were these coatings and did they have a life span?
2) I've seen mention of air testing the Met did related to how much, if any, asbestos is air borne from the operation. Is anyone aware of any newer studies or more details on previous ones?
3) To notion that we could "only use this in the event of a fire" without testing is a bit of a joke to me. It took us 2 hours and about 20 attempts before we got a smooth and complete in an out. Thoughts?
4) Anyone else blessed with one of these want to share their practice?

I've attached some pictures for reference.

Reach out to Wendy Wazsut-Barrett, via FaceBook regarding the vintage. Let us know the outcome. She also knows a company that encapsulates asbestos curtains. It is best to talk to a totally knowledgeable person rather than us muggles. Many years ago, we identified that we had an asbestos. We wondered if it should be changed. Then one day we had the fire curtain out, the red mains in, and, for some reason, a black light on in the FOH. The asbestos flakes looked like the stars of the night sky. It got changed out. Point: try a UV light to see what happens.

 

[Ted jones]

Contact a local ACM removal company and ask them if they perform air monitor testing. If you come up clean on putting fibers in the air, plan on having the test every couple of years to prove the air is clean. Then hire a rigging company to install a system to lower the curtain automatically if the rate of rise detectors are tripped. Do not depend on fuse links only. Have the curtain rigging updated at the same time.

That said, if the ACM is that old, it may be decomposing and you should replace it as it will not withstand the heat or pressure due to a stage fire.

The above said, replace the curtain with a non-ACM curtain and new rigging and all of the problem goes away until fiber glass is found to be a carcinogen. Probably next week.

BTW- When you get your new curtain and rigging, have it motorized. Then cycle it every month.

There's a company or two in Indy that can help you. If you want pricing from us, we are in Chicago.

We rerigged a 1920 theater a few years ago where the ACM fire curtain was the 7th panel in a set of 7 murals on the side walls and the curtain to complete a scene. The curtain was 60 years old and decomposing. We replaced it with a glass curtain and the old curtain was touched up by Conrad Schmidt in Milwaukee and then sealed. It is on CWT set 4 or 5 so it can be lowered in to complete the scene with the house murals.

 

[Aaron Clarke]

Thank you all for your insight and hope.

I did reach out to Curtains without boarders thanks to the suggestion from @DrewE and had a great conversation the other day with Chris. She offered some suggestions and a name of someone that handles (addresses the asbestos hazard) historic fire curtains.

I also, just earlier today ran across Wendy's name and contact information before getting on here. So I'll probably reach out to her as well. So thank you for that suggestion @RickBoychuk

I also was thinking of the simple "home" test kits also, if anything to maybe ease the panic I saw the next day from the board president who reacted to the word asbestos like I had released mustard gas in the theatre during a sold out show. Also referred to me as "opening pandora's box" which I snarkely replied, "Pandora's box has been open the whole time, you've just been ignoring it." Sometime the filter doesn't work.

I'm glad to see there are paths forward to meet the codes we of course need too and not lose the history.

Now, one day I'll get the nerve to test the smoke vents and see if they even open and can be closed again...

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Are vents the original haystack lantern style with glazed sash that fall outward?

 

[Aaron Clarke]

Are vents the original haystack lantern style with glazed sash that fall outward?

My comment was a bit sarcastic. While I'm sure not tested in some time they are far newer. I suspect replaced in the mid 2000's when the roof was redone.

 

[RonHebbard]

Thank you all for your insight and hope.
Now, one day I'll get the nerve to test the smoke vents and see if they even open and can be closed again...

@Aaron Clarke I'm pleased to see you mentioning testing your smoke vents.
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada; 1991.
Any of us working above the full stage grid, and / or out on the roof above our stage, were ALL WARNED REPEATEDLY to keep well away from any / all of our three smoke vents.
Periodically if out on our highest roof, I'd collect and dispose of beverage containers used as ashtrays by roofers and HVAC service folks.

One day during winter when all three vents had at least 4" of accumulated snow and ice on them, a co-op student and I ventured out to clear the ice and snow from the vents with two observations:

1; The insulation must be working, were it not, the snow and ice would surely melt.
2; Wonder if the springs are designed to open regardless of how much ice and snow may have accumulated?

Mark Bellini and myself approached the 1st door VERY cautiously, secured a rope to its release handle, pulled; the handle actuated and the door remained in place without any hint of opening.

Staying well clear of the hinged side, we approached the opposite side and tried our darndest to heft the door open.
Not a chance; ZERO movement, not a bit.
Cautiously we approached the remaining two doors with the same result.

Determined to learn how much effort would be required to open the vents, we collected some wood from our scene shop and ventured out on a sunny spring day when all of the ice and snow had melted and ran off as water.
We placed a ~two foot square of 3/4" ply flat on the roof to spread our force rather than point loading the tar and gravel.
Next we stood a length of 2 x 6 vertically to act as a fulcrum then used a second length of 2 x 6 as a lever to pry up hard on the non-hinged edge of the first door. FINALLY, with all of my 160 pounds bearing down on the free end of the lever, we managed to open the HEAVY insulated door an inch or two.
First mission accomplished, we moved along and employed our same technique on the remaining two doors achieving near identical results.
We reported this to our Production Manager, Steve Newman, who raised the issue with the architect, who contacted his various consultants, PEng's et al.
Bottom Line: NOTHING changed, not while I was with Theatre Aquarius from prior to breaking ground through between Christmas and New Years of its second season.

Thinking back to 1973 when Head IA LX Tom Taylor and I went out to check Hamilton Place's Great Hall's six smoke vents, we only tested one door and it opened with near blurring speed.
Same city, same Fire Marshal, same everything, two decades earlier. Different manufacturer, MUCH beefier springs.
Thanks @Aaron Clarke for the memories.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

As the representative of the ASTC I proposed a change to the Life Safety Code which was added to the 2018 edition.

12.4.6.5.4 Testing.
Vents shall be inspected, maintained, and tested in accordance with Chapter 12 of NFPA 204 .

Basically, annual testing as well as after any painting or roofing work. All parts - both automatic and manual emergency opening.

So how many of you are thinking they've never been opened since you've been there.......

 

[tjrobb]

An aside, I know my house has newer (1980s) vents, along with the now-abandoned cupola. While it's sealed from below, if you look in the side louvers you can the the original 1928 sprinkler heads, and bent metal water lines. (I'm assuming copper, and the water has long since been disconnected).

 

[Ted jones]

Thank you all for your insight and hope.

I did reach out to Curtains without boarders thanks to the suggestion from @DrewE and had a great conversation the other day with Chris. She offered some suggestions and a name of someone that handles (addresses the asbestos hazard) historic fire curtains.

I also, just earlier today ran across Wendy's name and contact information before getting on here. So I'll probably reach out to her as well. So thank you for that suggestion @RickBoychuk

I also was thinking of the simple "home" test kits also, if anything to maybe ease the panic I saw the next day from the board president who reacted to the word asbestos like I had released mustard gas in the theatre during a sold out show. Also referred to me as "opening pandora's box" which I snarkely replied, "Pandora's box has been open the whole time, you've just been ignoring it." Sometime the filter doesn't work.

I'm glad to see there are paths forward to meet the codes we of course need too and not lose the history.

Now, one day I'll get the nerve to test the smoke vents and see if they even open and can be closed again...

Break a leg.

T