Design Lighting for a tour?

And you are going to need a good number of replacement power cubes. I can't see those behringer dimmers lasting long on the road.... Never used their lighting gear, but I have spent plenty of time with their audio gear. If you are still looking at buying, I would seriously look at at least an NSI package. Best would be smartpacks from ETC. If you could pick up some used CD80 packs that would also be a good way to go. If you do decide to go with the behringer dimmers, make sure you rack and wire them in a way that you can still pull them or at least be able to replace cards in them.

Yeah, I am sorry to say it but the Behringer is real junk. Worse than Elation stuff. Be careful on the NSI stuff as their dimmers will often operate on a different DMX timing than any moderate or high level console. If you go NSI dimmers, go NSI console.

I love the Smartpacks, and ETC will put a good system together for you (I sold a 36 touring rack not long ago), but if you are looking for a 96 rack I would go with Sensors.

CD80s are good workhorses and if you can do the regular maintenance on them, they will last you (another) lifetime. The best part on these is that you can buy them used for a fraction of the Sensors.

Mike
 
Yeah, I am sorry to say it but the Behringer is real junk.
I had figured they were not top notch, considering the price. I mean, If you can buy them for $250, and the cheapest next level up 6 channel dimmer is $1,000... You know something is not 100% right.

If you go NSI dimmers, go NSI console.
I have checked into NSI, and their equipments seems to be just as expensive as the ETC stuff, and most of their systems don't even have DMX, but some proprietary communications.

I love the Smartpacks, and ETC will put a good system together for you (I sold a 36 touring rack not long ago)
Now were getting somewhere. I was unaware of the ETC Smartpacks. However, Stagelightingstore.com has the ETC 1.2Kw, 12 channel smartpacks with Socapex output for $1,700. If you break that down into the 6 channels of the Eurolight, that's only $500 more than the Eurolight, and clearly ETC is a better company.

also for your dimmer rack did you factor in distribution for the rack. How are you going to connect the rack to the house power. Most theaters do not have 32 outlets for you to plug into. They do have cam though.
I was aware that some form of master distro would be needed to connect the dimmers to the road power, but I have not fully investigated this yet.

Also do not forget any fan-ins or fan-outs you may need. Its hard to plug a par can directly into a soco connection.
Yep, Pretty much each Socapex cable will terminate in a 6 circuit Stage Pin fan at the truss.

Also, consider the fact that if you buy all this gear you will need a place to store it when it is not in use. I don't know what kind of facilities you have, but chances are you and the gear won't be happy if it ends up in someone's basement as opposed to proper storage.
We have a dedicated office, workshop and rehearsal space with plenty of climate controlled storage.

Thanks,
James!

PS) There is also the Applied NN dimmers, which are a few hundred more. But really, they offer the same as the Smartpacks... 12 channels, 1.2Kw, etc. Are Applied dimmer's any better than ETC?
 
Last edited:
Go with the smartpacks. They are the "industry standard" for rack mount dimmers. ETC also makes little 24ch and 12ch sensor touring racks that are pretty nice.
 
James,
We also carry our own lighting and electric equipment, pre trussed and circuited. Our dimmers are the ETC Smart Pack 1.2Kw system running 12 channels per dimmer. Total channels are 72.

Our Dimmers have Socapex / Multi-Pin 6 circuit outputs (2 per dimmer), which we then wire with Socapex cable from the dimmers to the truss, where we have a Soca - 6 circuit stage pin fan out. From their each instrument is connected to the fan-out, in one way or another.

Before we had these Dimmers, we used our lighting, but hooked into the house dimmers. Really, this is not a bad idea. Almost all professional theaters have dimmers, so why not use them? Most are equipped with much more powerful dimmers than the ETC 1.2Kw as well. Most all houses we played at with their dimmers where a setup of at least 180 x 2.4Kw.

What we would do is have them drop cables from the dimmers based on our lighting plot, and then just "hook-em up" when we arrived. Of course we then had to either Patch or re-channel the dimmers to our specs... But it worked and was quick to setup.

If you can afford to buy however, I suggest you do it. It's still easier and more professional to roll in with your own equipment.

also, If you have an even remotely complex light plot, don't rely on the house lights. lights are pretty cheap, and its real important to get things setup quick. Even if you cant afford or want to deal with dimmers, at least carry your own instruments.
 
Well guys, Everything is setup.
Based on the completed lighting plot for the show (A Little Princess: The Musical), I have bought truss sections, and have pre-rigged and wired the truss sections. We also purchased a 60 channel (2.4Kw) Applied NN Touring rack.

Basically, The show only requires that an area 30' wide is lite, so as long as we don't get into a theater with less than a 30' proscenium, we should be good to keep the same plot for all theaters. Based on the current tour schedule, we are mainly in large houses (48 - 58' Prosceniums), with a few 33-35 footers.

I have set-up the entire rig, and everything works as it should. We hit the road in September, so I'm pretty excited!

I have also uploaded the Technical Rider, I would appreciate it if someone could review it and give their opinion on how well it is written, or things that could be added or taken away. Here is the link to it (at Scribd: http://www.scribd.com/full/15079976?access_key=key-1g1mjoxh1ztf9v65g4kt)

Thanks for the help!
James
 
Last edited:
Just one comment before I have to leave. Do you really require 1.2x the stage height of fly space? My local road house has a 27 foot proscenium and a 56 foot grid, which would make it unusable for your show. However, you list your minimum proscenium height as 14 feet. In my theatre, that would give you 4x as much fly space as you need. I just don't see how important the actual proscenium height is, since you'll be masking it way in anyways.
 
A couple minor typos

Section II - equipment OWNED by us, not "own by us."

Section XI - it's LIEU not "a water cooler proved in lou"

Section XV - SALE of merchandise, not sell of merchandise
 
Michael,
The grid height is really unimportant, as nothing is being directly rigged from the grid. What we are concerned about is the high trim of the battens. The reason we need AT LEAST 1.2X proscenium height is so all the drops can be flown out without remaining in view of the audience.

For example, if your proscenium is 27', we would first mask that down to at least 20'. With a grid of 56', that would provide plenty of space. The minimum specification we can deal with are 14' proscenium height and a high trim at least 1.2x (preferably 1.5x) that height.

Ideally, we don't want to perform with a 14 foot proscenium, with prime range would be 18 to 24 feet. Anything out of that range, one way or the other, is undesirable and if above 24' would need to be masked to get it down to that.

It's the same reason Annie requires a 60' grid... to allow for plenty of space to fly the full backdrops into and keep them out of view of the audience.

Hope that explained it....
James

PS) Thanks for noticing the Typos. I'll have to do some correction to the rider before it is posted anyway, so I'll make note of what needs to be done.
 
Last edited:
I personally enjoy seeing spaces being transformed for productions. Part of the Montana Rep mission statement is bringing quality theatre to those who might not normally get the opportunity. While the tour plays in several big house, it also plays in several small houses as well. Sometimes this means sacrificing a portion of the set and sometimes it means completely transforming a space.

One stop that has become a stop on every tour doesn't even have a theatre. We have to go in and completely transform their gym into a theatre. The locals in return cook up some AMAZING home cooked food to show their appreciation and everyone pitches in on the transformation. Sure it is amazing and rewarding playing in large houses, but it is equally rewarding seeing the pure excitement a town can get when they get to see something that they normally don't get.
 
I personally enjoy seeing spaces being transformed for productions. Part of the Montana Rep mission statement is bringing quality theatre to those who might not normally get the opportunity. While the tour plays in several big house, it also plays in several small houses as well. Sometimes this means sacrificing a portion of the set and sometimes it means completely transforming a space.

One stop that has become a stop on every tour doesn't even have a theatre. We have to go in and completely transform their gym into a theatre. The locals in return cook up some AMAZING home cooked food to show their appreciation and everyone pitches in on the transformation. Sure it is amazing and rewarding playing in large houses, but it is equally rewarding seeing the pure excitement a town can get when they get to see something that they normally don't get.
Sure its nice, but the problem is that for a production of our size, it cost's way to much to play in a house under 1,400 seats. When you have to pay the salary of 35 people, pay for a motorcoach, semi, hotel, food etc it just becomes way to expensive to perform in little houses. Our cost during the tour is $28,000 per week! If you devide that into 4 performances a week, we need to make at least $7,000 off of each performance just to break even! If you ad the additonal $250,000 a year in corporate cost, we are looking at well over $500,000 a year in expenses.
 
Few general comments from me, as someone in a house tech/ATD position at a road house (who knows, you might be playing here?). The biggest thing that jumps out at me as odd is that you aren't traveling with your own audio engineer and expect a local tech to mix a full musical, which s/he hasn't seen before. I don't see that going smoothly on any kind of a regular basis. It is much more common for a touring show to bring an audio tech and have one of the local techs be the "go monkey" at the lighting console.

Now some nitpicky things:
A tech rider isn't a job posting thus the job descriptions aren't necessary. I know what a PSM does. A simple list of the touring staff by position will be sufficient. I would also move your local crew requirements into this section. That keeps all the staffing info together and reduces the chance that it would get missed by someone skimming through during a busy week.
 
Few general comments from me, as someone in a house tech/ATD position at a road house (who knows, you might be playing here?). The biggest thing that jumps out at me as odd is that you aren't traveling with your own audio engineer and expect a local tech to mix a full musical, which s/he hasn't seen before. I don't see that going smoothly on any kind of a regular basis. It is much more common for a touring show to bring an audio tech and have one of the local techs be the "go monkey" at the lighting console.

Now some nitpicky things:
A tech rider isn't a job posting thus the job descriptions aren't necessary. I know what a PSM does. A simple list of the touring staff by position will be sufficient. I would also move your local crew requirements into this section. That keeps all the staffing info together and reduces the chance that it would get missed by someone skimming through during a busy week.

Thanks for the notes. I'll remove the job description and move the Local crew in with it.

As to the Audio Engineer, here is the dilemma: Most of the houses we are playing at are union houses, and require union staff. We are not a yellow-card show, and the company has no interest in unionizing the show. I'm unclear on the position of the venue here... If they have a IATSE contract stating that they have to use union personal, and we show up with all the main crew who are not union personnel, were do you draw the line on "who" should be running the show? Do you ignore the contract and let the non-union staff of the company run the show, or do you not permit them to run the show and replace them with their own union staff.

That's really confusing to me, as I have never worked at a union house before. Perhaps someone here can fill me on how these IATSE contract work on the venue basis?

I don't want to go adding too many crew positions that we A) Don't need or cant use due to union contracts and B) We can hire locally at each venue (to save on food, hotel, transport cost).

If you think we should budget in for a dedicated audio engineer, I'll bring that up to the President and see if I can get the job approved by him.

Thanks,
James
 
Last edited:
We're not an IA house and I don't have any experience working at IA houses, so I don't actually know how that end of things will work. Some of the other members may be able to enlighten you as to typical minimum crew calls and such though your best bet would be to start calling venues and asking what the rules are.

If you can only have one board tech with the tour, it makes far more sense to bring a sound tech to mix the show and have a local tech press the go button on the lighting console. So long as cues are programmed, you really don't need to know the show to sit down and press go on cue. Completely different story when it comes to mixing a musical with multiple lavs, actors entering and exiting, and the whole shebang. I'd be interested in hearing other people's perspectives on this, but it seems to me, that you'll likely have a better quality show with a mediocre audio tech that knows the show inside and out rather than an experienced FoH engineer who is seeing the show for the first time.

So, assuming you decide you want a sound tech, how do you get one? Obviously, you could just hire an additional technician. But producers don't like to do things like that because it's expensive. Second option, could the TD operate sound instead of lights for the show? No added cost whatsoever. Another option, do you really need to bring a PA with you? You already have a PSM and ASM, could a local stage hand pick up any slack as needed instead of the PA. If so, your PA could become an audio tech and while salary would have to go up a little, per diem costs stay the same.

Going back to your tech rider, generally it is lacking in detail. The more specific information you can provide about the show, more issues can be worked out prior to you arrival at the venue. For one, how about adding a schedule? Then the venue will know how long and when to call the crew for. Could save you money and surprises like the venue TD coming up to you and letting you know that everyone is hitting OT in 15 minutes. Describe the set, flying pieces, get specific about monitor requirements, etc etc. Other little details, for load-in and out, you've asked for one flyman but don't have anyone to throw weight. How about detailed clear-com requirements? Is the wireless com a need or a want? These are good tidbits of info that will make your life less stressful.
 
Last edited:
Michael,
The grid height is really unimportant, as nothing is being directly rigged from the grid. What we are concerned about is the high trim of the battens. The reason we need AT LEAST 1.2X proscenium height is so all the drops can be flown out without remaining in view of the audience.

For example, if your proscenium is 27', we would first mask that down to at least 20'. With a grid of 56', that would provide plenty of space. The minimum specification we can deal with are 14' proscenium height and a high trim at least 1.2x (preferably 1.5x) that height.

Ideally, we don't want to perform with a 14 foot proscenium, with prime range would be 18 to 24 feet. Anything out of that range, one way or the other, is undesirable and if above 24' would need to be masked to get it down to that.

It's the same reason Annie requires a 60' grid... to allow for plenty of space to fly the full backdrops into and keep them out of view of the audience.

Hope that explained it....
James


I'm sorry, I meant to say max out trim of the battens, not the grid height. But I'm still not sure though why you necessarily need to have 1.2x fly space for every venue. As you said, in my theatre you would mask it down to 20' and that would leave you 36 feet above, which as you said would be plenty. However, according to your rider, my theatre would not be acceptable for your tour because it's not at least 1.2x the proscenium height. Since it sounds like you will trim your portals at around 20 feet, I assume the drops are designed around this and are not way taller than required. Consider an unusually large theatre, say with a 50 foot proscenium and a 100 foot max out trim. This would provide you more fly space than you could ever need or want, but according to your rider, the space is not good enough for you. At least on all the shows I've worked, the road people really don't care what the actual height of the proscenium is. They just trim their portals to the predetermined heights and those become the "fake proscenium" for the show.

I'm not trying to prove you wrong or anything, that's just something that's been bugging me for a long time now, and I wonder if there's something I'm missing here.
 
If you can only have one board tech with the tour, it makes far more sense to bring a sound tech to mix the show and have a local tech press the go button on the lighting console. So long as cues are programmed, you really don't need to know the show to sit down and press go on cue. Completely different story when it comes to mixing a musical with multiple lavs,


So, assuming you decide you want a sound tech, how do you get one? Obviously, you could just hire an additional technician. But producers don't like to do things like that because it's expensive. Second option, could the TD operate sound instead of lights for the show? No added cost whatsoever. Another option, do you really need to bring a PA with you? You already have a PSM and ASM, could a local stage hand pick up any slack as needed instead of the PA. If so, your PA could become an audio tech and while salary would have to go up a little, per diem costs stay the same.
I'm actually the Technical Director who will be going on tour with the show. You bring up a very good idea, but I have a slight twist on the idea... Turn the Production Assistant into the Asst. Technical Director, who can run the lighting for show while I do sound. This way, we have our bases covered on both lighting and sound without needing an additional person.

Now comes the thought part though, convincing the producers that they don't need a PA. Problem with this show is that it employs a cast of about 9 children, and I think they had the PA in mind to act as a supervisor for the children. Thing is, the parents will be coming along on the tour as well (as per state law requires), so I really don't see a need for that position.

Going back to your tech rider, generally it is lacking in detail. The more specific information you can provide about the show, more issues can be worked out prior to you arrival at the venue.
I'll be putting in a stage plot (plane view) for each scene, and more detailed fly schedule and information. I'm still working on getting everything put together in that department.

On the production schedule, I don't feel that it would go well in a "general" rider. As I state in the rider, once we determine dates and showtime for the venue, we will work with them to put together a schedule that works for both of us. There are just too many factors evolved. On the other hand, I guess I could put a general "time frame" in there, which would give general information on how long it takes to load in, setup, etc.

I also need to place more show specific information in there, such as running time and intermission.


I'm not trying to prove you wrong or anything, that's just something that's been bugging me for a long time now, and I wonder if there's something I'm missing here.
I see now where you are coming from. The maximum height of the Backdrops (which are all flats) is 14', hence the 14' proscenium requirement. Ideally, I need to re-word the rider to state that the minimum high trim for battens needs to be AT LEAST 35 feet. This would assume a 1.5x minimum fly height above the required 14' min. proscenium (14+14+7= 35).

Thanks for bringing that up... That was a major kink that needed worked out. I had assumed in my last post that you where asking "why" we needed fly space, not "why do you need that much fly space". Communication error on my part I guess.

Thanks!
 
A few random thoughts...
Minimum # of Lines available: 8 Flyable lines + 3 Electric Lines (11 Total)
Minimum Counterweight Required: 800lbs
You have 8 "Flyable lines": All 14'High flats? and 3 electrics; and only need 800 lbs. of counterweight total?

I have bought truss sections, and have pre-rigged and wired the truss sections.
I don't know what kind of "truss sections" you're speaking of, but most trussing doesn't hang very well from a theatre's 1.5" pipe counterweight battens.

Are you not planning on using any of the theatre's lighting fixtures from FOH, Balc Rail or Box Booms? Do you plan on running your multi-cable from your dimmers to these locations or do you have a scheme for controlling house dimmers?
 
hello...im paolo...im from the philippines...my group also had tours around our island and neighboring regions...good for you guys you have all the equipments in a venue...for us we perform on found spaces.its actually fun when you cant use any of the equipment that you brought along and test your creative powers...hahaha...anyways, as you all know, we are listed in a 3rd world country.but some of us here thinks like you guys...if we have equipments like you guys have,maybe we could have much better shows and maybe then we could compare ourselves to you (i am not bragging or anything)...more anyways, i joined the CB because i am new to lighting design and never had a proper output yet...i kind of looking around for tips and ideas until i came across this site and was dedicated in producing stage plays/shows...for the meantime, i am looking for help in making a homemade cyc lights (well, if there is one)...maybe some one could help me....
Our groups name is Performance Laboratory, Inc...well this group is funded by our own pockets... :((
And if Any of you guys out there willing to donate old working equipments, we will surely accept this...yey! Right now we have 6 Par56 and 2 par64...huhuhuhu...we aint got no control or dimmer board but we do have the 6channel dimer pack...and i want to make a cyc lyts for effect and washes...but all i have are par38's...
if you want you could email me at [email protected]...
maraming salamat...thank you very much!!!:):)
 
hello...im paolo...im from the philippines...
Welcome Paolo!
You have 8 "Flyable lines": All 14'High flats? and 3 electrics; and only need 800 lbs. of counterweight total?
No. It goes in this order:
Line 1 - Front Drape / Curtain (travels with show).
Line 2 -First Electric (20 Circuits, Dimmers 1-20).
Line 3 – London Drop (FR Muslin, 60’ x 40’)
Line 4 – Second Electric (20 Circuits, Dimmers 21 – 40).
Line 5 – Chandelier Prop
Line 6 – Sharks tooth Scrim (FR Blue, 25’ x 40’).
Line 7 – Third Electric (20 Circuits, Dimmer 41 – 60).
Line 8 – Flat #1 “Minchin’s Academy Scene”.
Line 9 – Flat #2 “Sara’s Room Scene”.
Line 10 – Flat #3 “Attic Room Scene”.
Line 11 – Cyclorama (60’ x 40’) - This one actually does not fly.

And also, that is supposed to be 1,800lbs, not 800…. I need to go back through that and fact-check everything again.

I don't know what kind of "truss sections" you're speaking of, but most trussing doesn't hang very well from a theater's 1.5" pipe counterweight battens.
I have never really heard of that before... But by "trussing" I mean 1' Aluminum I-Beam truss in 10' sections. It seemed to hang fine in a local venue with a counterweight batten system, so I don't see the Issue.

Are you not planning on using any of the theatre's lighting fixtures from FOH, Balc Rail or Box Booms? Do you plan on running your multi-cable from your dimmers to these locations or do you have a scheme for controlling house dimmers?
The plot given to me does not call for any FOH lights (other than 1 follow spot). All lighting will come from the stage area.

Here is the link to the new rider. It's still not 100% done, but I made corrections and added a few things: http://www.scribd.com/full/15113272?access_key=key-gldq182q8wupavy9jpe
 
Last edited:
I just got out of a meeting with the Producer.. He has agreed to cut the PA job and add the Audio Engineer, even at an added expense. They also finalized the rate sheet and came up with a budget for the tour.

Get this... Are you ready?
$45,000 per week!!!!! At 15 weeks, that $675,000! I'm wondering how they are going to pull off asking almost $12,000 for each show, considering its not a Broadway show and not really that famous...

If you ask me, they should have stuck with just self-booking the tour. I think they are gonna have an uphill battle being a new company and asking that much for a pretty unfamiliar show.

Wow...:rolleyes:
 
I talked to a friend of mine today who is the local IATSE union rep for a Road House. According to him, each venue had a different labor agreement, but that most venue agreements contain a clause that only stage hands, loaders, riggers, etc are required to be union, and that the company staff and chief staff members can be non-union.

Just thought I would share...
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back