Design Lighting for a tour?

[Pie4Weebl]

Looking at your rider I have a few notes:
-I don't understand the note about "largest obstruction"
-You contradict yourself by saying a loading dock is needed, and then saying its really not. I think if you say you are bringing a semi it can be assumed you need to load and unload it.
-What is the difference between load in and setup? Likewise with strike and load out? They should be one item and you are going to need waaay more than just 4 hands.... I would ask for at least 8, and just assume at most places you might not get what you want.
-It should be "Light Focus" and not "Focusing" on your schedule
-For your lineset schedule add in distance from the proscenium so you get things hung where you really want.
-Under Electric Requirements, you may want to add in a note about the promoter being responsible for tie in permits and what not.
-Also the note about console placement seems kinda pointless
-You spelled console wrong about 20 times....
-Under merchandise, you aren't carrying your own cash box or cash register? Really? You also want someone to run the booth and the the venue to pay the sales tax? Does the venue get a cut of this, your rider does not specify...

 

[jamesmiller]

-Under merchandise, you aren't carrying your own cash box or cash register? Really? You also want someone to run the booth and the the venue to pay the sales tax? Does the venue get a cut of this, your rider does not specify...

That's what was told to me by the tour manager. It seems pretty standard to have a venue staff member operate the merchandise sales stand, and to also provide selling equipment. As to Sales Tax, most venues will sell under their sales tax certificate, which prevents us from needed a sales tax permit for all 50 states.

Of course, I would think they get a % of the sales, but I was not told what that was or too put that in the rider. I'll find out if they want that in there, and if so, update is as needed.

-You spelled console wrong about 20 times....

Gotcha...

For your lineset schedule add in distance from the proscenium so you get things hung where you really want.

The only reason I didn't include that was because the line set schedule for some venues cannot be altered, and to say that "Flat #1 needs to be 18.5' from the proscenium might not work if the venues closest line-set is 16' and 22'. In all case's, I custom line-set schedule will be created and forwarded ahead of time to the venue along with their venue specific performance schedule.

It should be "Light Focus" and not "Focusing" on your schedule

Gotcha.

What is the difference between load in and setup? Likewise with strike and load out? They should be one item and you are going to need waaay more than just 4 hands.... I would ask for at least 8, and just assume at most places you might not get what you want.

This stems from my complete lake of experience on tours, but to me, load-out and load-in is bringing the equipment from the truck onto the stage, and vise verse. Setup / Rigging is assembling sets, hanging the lighting, etc.

To me, they seem like different monsters. In fact, upon looking at the tech sheet for some venues, they have booth "Loaders" and "Stage Hands"... So knowing when one is needed and one isn't maybe a helpful thing?

I suppose I could combine the two and just state "loaders needed is X" and "Stage Hands Needed is X"?

Any comments on this?

I don't understand the note about "largest obstruction"

That should have been "constriction". Meaning Doorways, Hallway's etc between the loading door and the stage cannot be less than the required size to get the equipment through.

You contradict yourself by saying a loading dock is needed, and then saying its really not. I think if you say you are bringing a semi it can be assumed you need to load and unload it.

I was trying to make is known that a loading dock is preferred, but if the venues is not equipped with one, then we can still unload. I don't want to say "Loading Dock Required", as it may turn off a venue that does not have one when it really isn't needed, only preferred.

The reason I did this was so that when we arrive at the venue, I really don't want find out that they have a loading dock, but only that since we said it wasn't needed, they have the dock blocked or used for something else.

Thanks,
James

 

[len]

This stems from my complete lake of experience on tours, but to me, load-out and load-in is bringing the equipment from the truck onto the stage, and vise verse. Setup / Rigging is assembling sets, hanging the lighting, etc.

To me, they seem like different monsters. In fact, upon looking at the tech sheet for some venues, they have booth "Loaders" and "Stage Hands"... So knowing when one is needed and one isn't maybe a helpful thing?

I suppose I could combine the two and just state "loaders needed is X" and "Stage Hands Needed is X"?

Any comments on this?

Just specify you need X loaders, X riggers, X carp, X electrician, etc. Most union venues will have minimum hands and/or minimum hours (plus breaks) anyway. Load in is usually done at the same time as set-up. The theater I pick the occasional shift at it's usually 8 AM start on show day, work til it's done (usually 2 - 4 hours) and the out is done immediately after the last performance.

What you might want to do is look at the websites of some places you might play at around the country. The only ones I can think of are the Fox in Detroit, something in St. Louis, the Paramount in Aurora, IL, the Rialto in Joliet, IL etc. Take a look at what they provide, their minimums, etc.

Paramount Theater - Broadway's Best In The 'Burbs!

The Rialto Sqaure Theatre

The Fox Theatre - Atlanta

 

[rochem]

Just to add in a few more things, now that I have time to go through it:

So you won't be using any masking? No borders or legs or anything? Of course, you may be rigging them from the grid with chain hoists, but if you plan to use any borders or legs or side tabs or full stage blackouts, that should go in your lineset schedule as well. And I agree that putting the distances from the proscenium (or from some other pre-determined point, like the Show 0-0) is important - if the venue knows in advance that your linesets only go to 21' behind the proscenium, they won't need to strip the pipe thats 45' upstage. And I don't know if this is standard, but my local roadhouse will often hang legs and borders for a show, as well as tape out the set/deck edges and the chain hoist locations, which saves you time at load-in.

Speaking of chain hoists, will you be using any? It looks like you're using the house sound, so you won't need to hang a center cluster or speaker towers, but will you have sidelight towers or large set pieces or anything which will need to be rigged from the grid? If so, be sure to specify this.

The maximum obstruction thing needs rewording. Just say that you need a clear path of travel at least 7x8 from the loading dock directly to the stage. And yeah, Load-In is the same as Setup, and Strike is the same as Load-Out. Generally everyone on the call starts moving the cases off the trucks, but after you've emptied a certain amount, only a few loaders will stay and everyone else goes off to start putting up the show. Same with the load-out, you will often bring certain cases to the trucks early and then wait till later to load the rest. Depends on the show though.

In the end, it's better to put too much than too little. The last thing you want is to walk in to a venue for the load-in and find that the company switch is located 300 feet away and you don't have enough feeder or something like that.

 

[jamesmiller]

So you won't be using any masking? No borders or legs or anything?

The set designer didn't mention the use of borders or masking at the last meeting I had with her. I'll get with her on that, to find out if they will be employed in this production.

I would think that they want wing masking, but again, this was not made clear.

Speaking of chain hoists, will you be using any?

Nothing given to me suggest needing any rigging from the grid. Everything seems to be able to be rigged from the battens.

The maximum obstruction thing needs rewording. Just say that you need a clear path of travel at least 7x8 from the loading dock directly to the stage. And yeah, Load-In is the same as Setup, and Strike is the same as Load-Out. Generally everyone on the call starts moving the cases off the trucks, but after you've emptied a certain amount, only a few loaders will stay and everyone else goes off to start putting up the show. Same with the load-out, you will often bring certain cases to the trucks early and then wait till later to load the rest. Depends on the show though.

Gotcha...

The last thing you want is to walk in to a venue for the load-in and find that the company switch is located 300 feet away and you don't have enough feeder or something like that.

That's true...

Just specify you need X loaders, X riggers, X carp, X electrician, etc. Most union venues will have minimum hands and/or minimum hours (plus breaks) anyway.

Gotcha...

What you might want to do is look at the websites of some places you might play at around the country.

I'll check them out....

Thanks,
James.

 

[jamesmiller]

I thought I'd go ahead and post this, not that its really relevant to this discussions, but anyway:

I was told that the tour is both self booked and promoter booked. As of now, they have most of the self-booked parts worked out, including the venues:
Morris Performing Arts Center - South Bend, In (2 Shows)
IU Auditorium - Bloomington, In (2 Shows)
Clowes Memorial Hall - Indianapolis, In (Hometown show! ) (3 Shows)
Overture Center - Madison, WI (2 Shows)
Peoria Civic Center - Peoria, IL (2 Shows)
Paramount Theater - Aurora, IL (3 Shows)
Palace Theater - Louisville, KY (2 Shows)
Palace Theater - Marion, OH (2 Shows)
Aronoff Center - Cincinnati, OH (1 Show)
Tennessee Performing Arts Center - Nashville, TN (2 Shows)

Apparently they don't expect many "bookings" for the show, as they seem to have covered all of their expense in the self booked part. I don't understand why more tours don't do this? The breakdown they sent me today showed a profit (after adverting, rental rates and labor) of $40,000 average per performance! Beats $8,000 for a performance, that's for sure! According to their spreadsheet, that's only counting a 40% house as well.

This helps me dramatically, in that its not going to be a surprise of venues at the last minute. This does of course mean I either have to: A) Remove the promoter information from the rider, B) Make a separate rider for promoter booked venues or C) Just put a note in the rider that all sections may not apply to self booked venues? Any suggestion?

So we might be coming to a town near you soon!

Cheers,
James

PS) With permission, here is the Profit / Loss Sheet they sent me: http://www.scribd.com/full/15223059?access_key=key-1mpjl37ivytsvkawtgbv

 

[jamesmiller]

I found out a bit of interesting news at the production meeting this morning... They got next seasons tour already licensed!

Here is comes... "Cinderella"
Wow... Can't wait to deal with a production of that size . 32 Actors, looking like a crap load of sets and props from what little I ready of the script notes.

I had better master this whole tour thing THIS YEAR, because next year it won't be so easy.

Just thought I'd share my bit of bad, er, good news.

James

 

[jamesmiller]

Okay, I just learned from the LD today that they do in fact need a front wash of light for the show (which was not spelled out in the original meeting or in the lighting plot???).

They will need a general "plain" wash of light that can be dimmed.

Anyhow, now comes a really stupid question: Since we are bringing our own lighting equipment, how do we control the FOH lights from our console? If we was using the house lighting board, it would be simple enough. But since we are not...

Any suggestions on how we can do this and how I should word it in the rider?

Thanks,
James

PS) Also, the set designed got with me on the side masking. They do intend to use masking, but it will actually be part of the main backdrop, which is free-standing (not rigged). Apparently, I misunderstood somewhere in that the London scene is NOT a drop, but a solid backdrop that is in a wedge shape, which covers the side wings and the back of the stage. I'll have to update that as well....

 

[SteveB]

Okay, I just learned from the LD today that they do in fact need a front wash of light for the show (which was not spelled out in the original meeting or in the lighting plot???).

They will need a general "plain" wash of light that can be dimmed.

Anyhow, now comes a really stupid question: Since we are bringing our own lighting equipment, how do we control the FOH lights from our console? If we was using the house lighting board, it would be simple enough. But since we are not...

Any suggestions on how we can do this and how I should word it in the rider?

Thanks,
James

Tours deal with this in 2 ways.

1) Allocate extra dimmers in the rack for FOH, then either A) Provide instruments and cable/Soca to run to any possible configuration of FOH (Not as common these days), or B) Simply provide dimmers in the rack, as well as Soca and FEMALE breakouts to run to an "FOH Termination panel" that allows for an interrupt of the "normal" FOH circuits so as to allow energizing via the tour rack. Many "road" houses have such a termination point, though our own Steve Terry wrote an article a couple of decades ago about how expensive and unneccesary this is in the age of DMX.

2) The common method is to provide a DMX signal from tour console/DMX distro to house dimmers. The key to this is to have the tour universe as Universe 2 for conventionals, with tour ML's, scrollers, etc... residing on DMX universes above 2 and to allocate the FOH DMX signal on Universe 1. This method avoids issues with assignments of Tour dimmers set to 1-512 and an existing house system on the same universe - such as part or all of the house lighting system, that you may not want energized suddenly in Act II a result of a patch issue. It lets you "dump" Universe 1 in the tour console (Dimmers 1-512 @ Ch Zero) and patch only the FOH dimmers required.

As to to the issues of union vs. non-union and crew sizes, it depends on the local contract. Our particular contract with Local 1, does not require a stagehand be hired for every non-union crew member who's part of the tour. Some contracts do require this, though usually the understanding is that as long as you hire a local union console operator, the non-union tour console operator may operate their own equipment, with the local person "standing by" and watching (usually TV in the crew room).

Steve B.

 

[jamesmiller]

Thanks for that information Steve!

I have almost got the rider done for A Little Princess, but had to take a break from that to work on the rider for their other show this year, "Wonderland".

I personally think I did a pretty good job with this one, as I had a bit of help from the rider from Troika's "Joseph"...

Tell me what you think... Thanks!
James

Link: http://www.scribd.com/full/15417413?access_key=key-13xdtshnppp9fmpv9sq0

 

[SteveB]

Thanks for that information Steve!

I have almost got the rider done for A Little Princess, but had to take a break from that to work on the rider for their other show this year, "Wonderland".

I personally think I did a pretty good job with this one, as I had a bit of help from the rider from Troika's "Joseph"...

Tell me what you think... Thanks!
James

Link: Wonderland Rider - Fullscreen

Nice rider, Jim, reads a bit like a Troika

Some thoughts:

1) You comment that only Midwest crew may "setup" and operate Midwest equipment and that you "may permit" venue crew to setup. What are 15 venue crew for ?. I assume you mean that "Venue crew will assist Midwest crew in the setup of all equipment, scenic, lighting, audio, wardrobe, as directed by Midwest crew. This actually reads a bit condescending. Don't assume the house crew are idiots and if they are, don't let them know. Note also that some house (ours as example) only allow house staff to operate house rigging equipment. We also generally only allow house electrics to operate audience chamber (house) lighting. If we allow the tour to have house lighting control, we still provide an override and an operator.

2) Some State laws require a break after 5 hrs of work, so it's not always up to the local union contract (who usually have 5 or 6 in any case).

3) One thought was ask for a ramp, or ramps at the loading dock. If you don't have to use the truck lift gates, you speed things up. Or bring ramps with you on the end of the truck(s).

4) I would change to: "Upon arrival, the show LD will consult with house electrical head, as to appropriate FOH lighting units to be used by event. House lighting staff can then assign fixtures to appropriate dimmers, and/or designate DMX addresses for those fixtures, whose DMX addresses will then be patched to tour console", or some such. I sometimes get an advance FOH lighting plot, the current one for Annie (this Sunday) was 3 VW drawings on 8x11. I then did a quick adaptation as to how I thought it would fit the house rig, but am prepared to have the tour LD change it at his/her discretion.

5) I would also be specific as to location of the 400 amp company switch being within range of your feeder cable. No help if they have a 400 amp service 200 feet away.

6) I would be a lot more specific with audio.
A) Be specific as to how far from the stage, and where is a desirable mixing location. Seats may have to be pulled in advance. How long an audio snake are you running (same thought for lighting console, BTW).
B) Be specific as to where you need monitor speakers, what type (generally), how many channels, preferred speaker type (15", 18"),
C) Since you are feeding house system, let them know how - I.E. Stereo feed, etc... How do you mix monitors, etc...
D) I'm confused by the fact that while the show music is pre-recorded, the SM plays it back. Would it not be the audio engineer doing this ?. And what's the orchestra for ?.
E) Have mixer audio power bundled with the snake. Connect mixer, wireless rack and all other audio equipment on same 20 amp outlet, or dual 20 amp outlets at same location, so as to prevent ground loops in the audio system. Bring direct boxes.

7) You provide a ground plan with masking shown, and I would recommend that if the house can mask to those spec's, let them. Saves you time.

Steve Bailey
Brooklyn College

 

[jamesmiller]

Steve,
Thanks for going through the rider. I have made some notes below:

1) You comment that only Midwest crew may "setup" and operate Midwest equipment and that you "may permit" venue crew to setup. What are 15 venue crew for ?. I assume you mean that "Venue crew will assist Midwest crew in the setup of all equipment, scenic, lighting, audio, wardrobe, as directed by Midwest crew. This actually reads a bit condescending. Don't assume the house crew are idiots and if they are, don't let them know. Note also that some house (ours as example) only allow house staff to operate house rigging equipment. We also generally only allow house electrics to operate audience chamber (house) lighting. If we allow the tour to have house lighting control, we still provide an override and an operator.

Gotcha. I see where your coming from that one.

2) Some State laws require a break after 5 hrs of work, so it's not always up to the local union contract (who usually have 5 or 6 in any case).

I will also add that state law may contradict break requirements.

3) One thought was ask for a ramp, or ramps at the loading dock. If you don't have to use the truck lift gates, you speed things up. Or bring ramps with you on the end of the truck(s).

The trucks will all have end ramps attached. No lift though :-(.

4) I would change to: "Upon arrival, the show LD will consult with house electrical head, as to appropriate FOH lighting units to be used by event. House lighting staff can then assign fixtures to appropriate dimmers, and/or designate DMX addresses for those fixtures, whose DMX addresses will then be patched to tour console", or some such. I sometimes get an advance FOH lighting plot, the current one for Annie (this Sunday) was 3 VW drawings on 8x11. I then did a quick adaptation as to how I thought it would fit the house rig, but am prepared to have the tour LD change it at his/her discretion.

Updated... Thanks.

D) I'm confused by the fact that while the show music is pre-recorded, the SM plays it back. Would it not be the audio engineer doing this ?. And what's the orchestra for ?.

Aha. I got told two different things by the musical director, and forgot to take one out of the rider. Originally, they where going to use the pre-recorded track but then decided to go with a full orchestra. Removed the recorded audio track note.

7) You provide a ground plan with masking shown, and I would recommend that if the house can mask to those spec's, let them. Saves you time.

Yes, I had mentioned this to the set designer. However, I guess the masking is designed to blend in with the rest of the backdrops / sets. I told her that some theaters you wont have to mask, and any "part of the set" that the masking is suppose to serve will be lost.... But I lost the argument.

This one is a much more technical show than "A Little Princess". I'm glad I'm not going on that tour though... I get to travel with the easier show :rolleyes. The Set Designer was showing me the computer drawings of the sets for Wonderland, and its amazing how it looks like the "Blue" set used for the Mama Mia tour Same type of masking, same type of backdrop, even same type of front curtain... Same color even. haha

Thanks,
James

PS) Back on the "Little Princess" thing... They also told me today that they are cutting down the budget on that one, due to lack of bookings (I guess to make it cheaper for the presenter?). This means I have to find someway to cut $8,000 per week from the show. Since they can't cut the hotel, food and travel, it looks like I'm going to have to cut tech staff. Lighting Supervisor and Audio Engineer added $1,900 per week in salaries and also additional hotels and food. I'm trying to find a way to combine these two roles into one "Tech guy" Since this a pretty basic show.

I also told the music director to either: A) Hire local musicians for the shows or B) Pre-record the music. The orchestra takes up around $4,000 per week in salaries, 6 hotel rooms and 6 mouths to feed. The set designer is also looking into doing away with the flying set pieces, to make the show more venue friendly for smaller theaters.

Any suggestions?

 

[Landon2006]

James - If you need someone to help on your tour, let me know. My end of the theater business has not been so great here lately....

Landon

 

[jamesmiller]

James - If you need someone to help on your tour, let me know. My end of the theater business has not been so great here lately....

Landon

Landon,
I am charged with hiring all the tech crew. From what I was reading of your post's, it seems you mainly have Stage Management experience.

I know they are looking for a touring production stage manager, so if you forward to me your resume I'll pass it along to them.

It would be cool to work with a fellow board member

Thanks,
James.

PS) They added several new "perspective" venues in which they are looking to play. I don't think they have them booked yet, just a perspective list:
Palace Theater, Columbus, OH
Brooklyn Center - Brooklyn, NY

 

[SteveB]

It would be cool to work with a fellow board member


PS) They added several new "perspective" venues in which they are looking to play. I don't think they have them booked yet, just a perspective list:

Brooklyn Center - Brooklyn, NY

Well, since Brooklyn Center is my hall, your wish may come true.

I am assuming that should this happen, it'll be a rental by your promoter, as it's not currently listed as an event by our in-house producer, who's bringing in I Love a Piano and Hairspray next year.

Our website is: Brooklyn Center for the Performing Arts

The Tech section is fairly detailed and I recommend checking it out thoroughly.

The e-mail addresses and contact info. is there as well for Production Manager, Lighting Director (Me) as well as house sound.

Hope this happens !.

FWIW, doing the Annie tour today, 4 trucks. OLD, OLD setup, 2 ML's, ton's of scrollers, a Ken Billington design from eons ago. Good crew, especially the 2 electrics ladies. Started at 4:30AM, 3PM show, then a 4 hour load-out. I'm feeling my age today.

Steve B.

 

[jamesmiller]

Well, since Brooklyn Center is my hall, your wish may come true.

Cool... I had no idea. Yeah, as of right now, it looks like ALL of the 2009 - 2010 leg of the tour is self-booked by the company. They are currently looking for presenters for 2010 - 2011 leg though.

PS) I have done the final rider for "A Little Princess". Since all the tours are self booked, each venue will be sent a customized rider based on their specs. They want me to get it completed by the next few days, so they can start sending them out to the venues to get a firm labor quote.

Anyway, I'll upload it a little later today. Any final thoughts on anything to put in, take away or change would be appreciated.

I also got some cool news: Since they are using the Sabine wireless system on the Wonderland tour, we get to use the new Sennheiser Evolution G3 100 system that we have on order. I have never used the Sennheiser before, I hope it can handle 24 channels running at the same time. According to the literature, it has 20 banks w/ 12 compatible systems per bank. I guess this means 20 banks within each frequency group? In which case I ordered (8) receivers in each of the 3 available groups.

Thanks,
James.

PS) Steve: Looks like your venue is a perfect fit for our show. Sure makes my job easier when all the tech stuff is on the net! Your grid height is a little low, but I think we could work within that. We would just have to mask the proscenium down to 16' or so.

 

[derekleffew]

...a Ken Billington design from eons ago. ...

Anyone know whatever happened to Judy Rasmuson? All that for a one-time matinee?

 

[SteveB]

All that for a one-time matinee?

PahLeeeease.....

49 stagehands, plus show crew of 12 ?.

I have no idea if the producer is making money on the show, though it's sold out at 2300 seats.

We do one or two of these a year, though I don't remember ever doing a a 5AM start, usually it's 6, plus we did a rental the night before, then had a crew strip house electrics and soft goods. Soft goods restore Monday at 8, then a middle school year-end talent nite rehearsal, then electrics restore on Tues., then a gala on Wed.

Not looking forward to Hairspray next year with 5 trucks. Credits for this one is Ming Cho Lee scenery, Theoni Aldredge - Costumes and Ken Billington and Jason Kantrowitz - Lighting, none. I'm certain, have seen this tour version in 15 years.

I do believe I'm whining !.

SB

 

[jamesmiller]

I have no idea if the producer is making money on the show, though it's sold out at 2300 seats.

From what I heard, the production of Annie requires a base fee of $25,000 per performance + 12% Box Office Gross. That was what my friend at the local road house told me anyway.

Lets do some math: Based on a $32 avg ticket price x 2300 seats = $73,600.00. Take away $8,832 in box office share and $25,000 base fee. That comes too $39,768. So they made $39,768 (not including venue labor and advertising).

Of course, Annie may have offered them a break on that fee. But for a tour to do a single show is generally more expense than if they did a two night stay.

PS) Steve, I know what you mean about the tour. I was working as Electrician at my local road house when we had it come through last October...

 

[jamesmiller]

Hate to hijack this thread, but:
LANDON -
I have been trying to get in contact with you via your email address you provided, but was not able to get a reply. Also no reply to PM's on this forum.

I would like to talk with you about coming along on the Princess tour. I have an opening for a lighting supervisor, and would like to see if your interested.

I noticed you live only about 60 miles from our office, so perhaps we can discuss this in person?