Design Lighting model train museum

Tenball

Member
Please forgive me it's been years since I did any lighting design or theatrical lighting. The last time I did it was mid to late 1990s. I know a lot has changed and trying to educate myself on all the changes, that being said, I know enough to be dangerous, but hopefully smart enough to ask for help, suggestions, and advice. I have spent the last 4 days here in the forums trying to find answers for what I'd like to do and not really finding them. Maybe I'm not searching for the right things. Feel free to school me, just be somewhat gentle with the 2x4 please.

I'll try not to be too long winded but hopefully supply all the info needed for your input and suggestions.

The building is a prefabricated 60' x 100' steel building, current lighting is 8' fluorescent 2 bulb fixtures. The fixtures were installed when the building was built about 20 years ago and now a good number of the ballasts are failing, not surprisingly, and we are looking to completely replace the existing lighting. There are some additions to the building that we would like to change in the future, so the system needs to be able to handle that when we get the funds to make them.

Members of the museum have traveled around the country looking at what other model train clubs, museums, and attractions are doing so that we might be able to create similar experiences. The consensus is that the lighting should make a transition from dawn to dusk and back to dawn again in a given timeline, say 30 minutes. There is also a need for lamps to be turned on and off over walkways, preferably dimming them as the environmental lighting makes the changes from dawn to dusk and back. We also need to be able to have bright white light for working on the layouts or maintenance when the museum is closed to the public. The system needs to be complex enough to control all the instruments but also simple enough to control once programmed that people with no knowledge can flip a switch or push a button to control. Most of the membership is 60s+.

On to the hair brained ideas I have come up with and for you to tell me how far off base I am. I have been looking at the Interactive Technologies CueServer 2 mini for controlling the instruments. To create the main environmental lighting my thought is to use DMX controlled RGBAW+UV PAR instruments focused mainly down to wash the layouts, but also adding in some washes both up walls and across the ceiling. The layouts will also have mini "lipstick" LED spots to highlight buildings or other points of interest. I'm planning on using a DMX dimmer to control them as the environmental lighting changes. Lastly we want to have old fashion warehouse lights with dimmable LED bulbs that will dim opposite of the environmental lighting.

Using the CueServer 2 mini and modules to run the DMX PAR instruments seems rather straightforward and to control the system with the push button pads for simplicity of use. I have also found the DMX driver dimmer for the single color LED spots (PX24606). What I haven't found is a DMX dimmer or relay to control the 120V old fashioned warehouse lights. I think a dimmer pack for a few lights is overkill and not needed.

Thoughts and suggestions?

Thank you in advance for reading and any help or suggestions you have.

Russ a volunteer way over his head!
 
Please forgive me it's been years since I did any lighting design or theatrical lighting. The last time I did it was mid to late 1990s. I know a lot has changed and trying to educate myself on all the changes, that being said, I know enough to be dangerous, but hopefully smart enough to ask for help, suggestions, and advice. I have spent the last 4 days here in the forums trying to find answers for what I'd like to do and not really finding them. Maybe I'm not searching for the right things. Feel free to school me, just be somewhat gentle with the 2x4 please.

I'll try not to be too long winded but hopefully supply all the info needed for your input and suggestions.

The building is a prefabricated 60' x 100' steel building, current lighting is 8' fluorescent 2 bulb fixtures. The fixtures were installed when the building was built about 20 years ago and now a good number of the ballasts are failing, not surprisingly, and we are looking to completely replace the existing lighting. There are some additions to the building that we would like to change in the future, so the system needs to be able to handle that when we get the funds to make them.

Members of the museum have traveled around the country looking at what other model train clubs, museums, and attractions are doing so that we might be able to create similar experiences. The consensus is that the lighting should make a transition from dawn to dusk and back to dawn again in a given timeline, say 30 minutes. There is also a need for lamps to be turned on and off over walkways, preferably dimming them as the environmental lighting makes the changes from dawn to dusk and back. We also need to be able to have bright white light for working on the layouts or maintenance when the museum is closed to the public. The system needs to be complex enough to control all the instruments but also simple enough to control once programmed that people with no knowledge can flip a switch or push a button to control. Most of the membership is 60s+.

On to the hair brained ideas I have come up with and for you to tell me how far off base I am. I have been looking at the Interactive Technologies CueServer 2 mini for controlling the instruments. To create the main environmental lighting my thought is to use DMX controlled RGBAW+UV PAR instruments focused mainly down to wash the layouts, but also adding in some washes both up walls and across the ceiling. The layouts will also have mini "lipstick" LED spots to highlight buildings or other points of interest. I'm planning on using a DMX dimmer to control them as the environmental lighting changes. Lastly we want to have old fashion warehouse lights with dimmable LED bulbs that will dim opposite of the environmental lighting.

Using the CueServer 2 mini and modules to run the DMX PAR instruments seems rather straightforward and to control the system with the push button pads for simplicity of use. I have also found the DMX driver dimmer for the single color LED spots (PX24606). What I haven't found is a DMX dimmer or relay to control the 120V old fashioned warehouse lights. I think a dimmer pack for a few lights is overkill and not needed.

Thoughts and suggestions?

Thank you in advance for reading and any help or suggestions you have.

Russ a volunteer way over his head!
@Tenball Tell us more about your existing "120 volt old fashioned warehouse lights".
Are they pure incandescents, Mercury Vapor, High Pressure Sodium, or?
Do your existing fixtures lend themselves to dimming, or would they only be capable of being switched On / Off, which I gather is NOT what you want to do although it would likely be easier / less costly to achieve.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
@RonHebbard The 120V old fashioned warehouse lights are new replicas of old fixtures using standard E27 incandescent base connected in normal residential or light industrial wiring. The lamps (bulb) we are looking at using are vintage style dimmable LED bulbs you can purchase at home depot or any number of retailers. Clear as mud? Lol

If there is another option to control the lamps via DMX that I'm not aware of I would appreciate your knowledge.
 
Liking model railroad layouts myself, I can picture the following: Leave the existing fluorescents/"warehouse" fixtures as is for work lights. You mention a "30 minute, dawn to dusk" situation. Add low-angle "sunrise" instruments in warm/orange/"daybreak" color from the "east" of your layout. Add "mid-morning" sources from appropriate angle, gelled appropriately.. Add "high-noon" sources directly overhead, colored "hot," mid-day sun. Add "afternoon" angle sources at appropriate angle. Add "evening-dusk" sources from the "west" of the layout, colored orange/sunset. And finally, add cool/medium blue "night," possibly the "noon" instruments diffused and with color change. Add a few specials to highlight things as needed and add internal lights in buildings, etc., which are on at "early-AM" or "night" as appropriate. Program cross-fades between these for your 30-minute "days."

Now, all of this assumes that you have the appropriate budget, of course. And if you really have the budget, add things as necessary for a "mid-day, dark sky storm" with sound effects and sneak it into the program on every 6th "day."

And call me; I want to see your layout.
 
@RonHebbard The 120V old fashioned warehouse lights are new replicas of old fixtures using standard E27 incandescent base connected in normal residential or light industrial wiring. The lamps (bulb) we are looking at using are vintage style dimmable LED bulbs you can purchase at home depot or any number of retailers. Clear as mud? Lol

If there is another option to control the lamps via DMX that I'm not aware of I would appreciate your knowledge.
Calling @jfleenor
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
@ship As of now we don't have a budget. I've been tasked with figuring out how to do the things the board members want the lighting system to be able to perform. That being said if it can be done inexpensively, great, but I know from experience and already pricing equipment it's not going to be cheap. My target is under $5000.00

Russ
 
Liking model railroad layouts myself, I can picture the following: Leave the existing fluorescents/"warehouse" fixtures as is for work lights. You mention a "30 minute, dawn to dusk" situation. Add low-angle "sunrise" instruments in warm/orange/"daybreak" color from the "east" of your layout. Add "mid-morning" sources from appropriate angle, gelled appropriately.. Add "high-noon" sources directly overhead, colored "hot," mid-day sun. Add "afternoon" angle sources at appropriate angle. Add "evening-dusk" sources from the "west" of the layout, colored orange/sunset. And finally, add cool/medium blue "night," possibly the "noon" instruments diffused and with color change. Add a few specials to highlight things as needed and add internal lights in buildings, etc., which are on at "early-AM" or "night" as appropriate. Program cross-fades between these for your 30-minute "days."

Now, all of this assumes that you have the appropriate budget, of course. And if you really have the budget, add things as necessary for a "mid-day, dark sky storm" with sound effects and sneak it into the program on every 6th "day."

And call me; I want to see your layout.
@JonCarter We do not want to keep the existing fluorescent fixtures for multiple reasons. First and foremost the ballasts are dying and the are becoming more difficult to find replacements. Second they are in locations that when the bulbs need replacement we have to build scaffolding over the layouts to change them. It can take almost a day just to replace 2 or 4 bulbs. Third we plan to use the conduit and junction boxes to run new romex and install duplex outlets to supply power for the RGBAW+ UV PAR lights. You have the idea we want to pull off, we just want to do it with LED instruments rather than gels with the possible exception of diffusers.

We have discussed having a storm on occasion. One location uses sensors that trigger when a flash from a camera goes off to play rolling thunder and flash strobes or the white channel of the PARs to flicker.

The museum has just about every sale if model railroad you can think of, we have one of each of the following scales HO, S, N, O, Z, and Tin on the floor. Suspended from the ceiling is G scale inside. Outside there is another G scale layout. There is also 7.5 scale that runs the perimeter of the property for people to ride. Here is a link https://gpdtrains.org/

Most of them have been finished for years but do undergo changes on occasion. Each of the layouts already have lit buildings, crossing signals, and other light or sound effects that are sometimes controlled by the visitors of the museum.

Russ
 
No budget, no problem... but means extra work.

You have a starting budget in declaring at $5K. This for lighting and control. Game on. Start with maximum illumnance required by the lighting plot at daylight illumicence... Perhaps add more to that for the cleaning staff, and you have a starting foot candle illumisance from fixtures specified given a foot candle rating.

LED's are probably out, as with T-5 or in general flourescents given their dimming curve does dim but does not do the amber shift unless more espensive types.

Suspect some normal archetectural 1-10v lighting control dimming system, hopefully 1/4 of that for system control in going to almost half for control stations, the rest for ligthing.

Just some initial concerns and thoughts and not stuff I normally specify stuff for in guessing what percentage of budget to balance for what. An actual designer for your lighting that knows options and control systems is recommended, but the cost of hiring such a person will also limit your budget. Hard place you are in.
 
No budget, no problem... but means extra work.

You have a starting budget in declaring at $5K. This for lighting and control. Game on. Start with maximum illumnance required by the lighting plot at daylight illumicence... Perhaps add more to that for the cleaning staff, and you have a starting foot candle illumisance from fixtures specified given a foot candle rating.

LED's are probably out, as with T-5 or in general flourescents given their dimming curve does dim but does not do the amber shift unless more espensive types.

Suspect some normal archetectural 1-10v lighting control dimming system, hopefully 1/4 of that for system control in going to almost half for control stations, the rest for ligthing.

Just some initial concerns and thoughts and not stuff I normally specify stuff for in guessing what percentage of budget to balance for what. An actual designer for your lighting that knows options and control systems is recommended, but the cost of hiring such a person will also limit your budget. Hard place you are in.
@ship I'm not sure I even have $500 to work with much less $5000, but I've been given the task because I mentioned I had an idea of how to make it happen. We don't have the budget to hire an actual designer, so I might be renting some instruments clamping them in place and doing trial and error to find out if my ideas will work and how many instruments it will take to pull it off.

At this point the numbers I have just for control is a little shy of $2400 and figure it will be another $2400 for instruments and miscellaneous. Yes, I'm in a difficult place for sure, but I'm trying to do the best I can with the funds/resources I have available. That includes you fine people already giving your ideas. Thank you!

Russ
 
Ok, back to your area to light, space to light from etc.

"Prefabricated 60' x 100' steel building, current lighting is 8' fluorescent 2 bulb fixtures." How high is the roof at it's peak?
.There is 8' LED replacement lamps on the market - doubtful on their CRI, but luminous output and CRI could not be perhaps worse. Going LED or T-5 High bay to consider - both controllable these days.
-I suspect this is as a a goal for permanent lighting and not rental for a show.
-RGB and dimmable white for color temperature are probably out of budget as with control stations for now.

Hopefully a starting point to work with.
 
Ok, back to your area to light, space to light from etc.

"Prefabricated 60' x 100' steel building, current lighting is 8' fluorescent 2 bulb fixtures." How high is the roof at it's peak?
.There is 8' LED replacement lamps on the market - doubtful on their CRI, but luminous output and CRI could not be perhaps worse. Going LED or T-5 High bay to consider - both controllable these days.
-I suspect this is as a a goal for permanent lighting and not rental for a show.
-RGB and dimmable white for color temperature are probably out of budget as with control stations for now.

Hopefully a starting point to work with.
@ship The peak is about 15' and the side walls are about 10' I haven't measured but a guess from doing other work at the museum. I mentioned in a previous reply we don't want to try to fix the fluorescent fixtures for a few reasons, 1 they are not easy to get to to replace the bulbs, we have to construct scaffolding to get to them. 2 replacement LED fluorescent style bulbs are easy to find in 4' but not 8'. 3 we plan to use the existing conduit and junction boxes to run new wiring and duplex outlets.

This is a long term permanent replacement of the existing fluorescent lighting, not for a show or short term.
 
You can cut down on that control price a lot by going to a computer based control software.

Cue Player and Venue Magic are two that I have played with. The later being well versed in using.

You will be hard pressed to get an even wash in that big of a space without holes. So the real question is what is the actual foot prints of the “train spaces” and focus on trying to light those areas first then focus on the building with the left overs.

Pictures would help or a drawing of some sort.

You need a budget before anyone can offer anything even remotely substantial.

Also I agree with ship that hiring a consultant can help with fixture discounts and most likely a programmer too.
 
You can cut down on that control price a lot by going to a computer based control software.

Cue Player and Venue Magic are two that I have played with. The later being well versed in using.

You will be hard pressed to get an even wash in that big of a space without holes. So the real question is what is the actual foot prints of the “train spaces” and focus on trying to light those areas first then focus on the building with the left overs.

Pictures would help or a drawing of some sort.

You need a budget before anyone can offer anything even remotely substantial.

Also I agree with ship that hiring a consultant can help with fixture discounts and most likely a programmer too.
@Amiers The "train spaces" or layouts fill almost the entire 6000 square feet of the building. With the exception of walkways about 5' wide and the main walkway being about 7' wide the rest is the layouts.

You can see some of the building and layouts by following this link and going to the gallery https://gpdtrains.org/
 
@Amiers The "train spaces" or layouts fill almost the entire 6000 square feet of the building. With the exception of walkways about 5' wide and the main walkway being about 7' wide the rest is the layouts.

You can see some of the building and layouts by following this link and going to the gallery https://gpdtrains.org/
How bout that. You are south of us by a few hours.

So looking at some of the pictures kind of paints a picture.

I will have to say if you think 12 fixtures will cover your space with a 25 degree beam spread is going to be tough. Especially if you want a whole east coast west coast wall to wall environment lighting.

Rough math here:

If you hung 4 fixtures at the apex of the building baring it is in the middle like google maps shows you could hit one whole wall shooting roughly 30’ away gives your fixtures about 13’ spread. Double that for each wall that gives you 4 fixtures to do some sort of down wash. You will lose spread the earth from the apex you get as the ceiling drops.


Minimal:

4 per wall from the apex
5 down wash from apex
14 down wash 7 on either side of the apex.

Optimal:

7 per wall hung from the apex
7 down wash from the apex
28 down wash 14 on either side of the apex.

4E0E3734-AFAD-45BF-8234-218D41571D4C.jpeg


Now after all that don’t forget you have to run DMX for all these fixtures and run dedicated circuits for power.

Minimal option of Led fixtures could run off 1 20amp breaker

Optimal option 2 20amp breakers.

I’ll let someone else speak on the warehouse fixtures and control integration.

Personally with this amount of setup I would go with Venue Magic as it is user friendly and has a timeline based system and big control buttons easy for the oldest to click.
 
You should look at your par light selection, which would seem to be the primary lighting. With so little money I hate to suggest buying one but I think this fixtures performance will be very disappointing: dimming, color, and life. I'd consider this par a disposable fixture and would expect maybe half failing within 5 years.
 
I think still a fact of LED is that dimming and color may not be satisfactory on a very low budget like discussed here. You might get away with it for an event, but not going to last 20 years like your current system. In short, I recommend skepticism for such low cost LED fixtures.

And now looking at your gallery, beware of shadows from the near point sources of pars versus the much more diffuse source of the 8' fluorescents. With only 12 in a 60 x 100 building - 20'+ apart - very shadowy - especially from overhead G scale. And did you look at the photometrics? http://cdb.s3.amazonaws.com/ItemRelatedFiles/12348/LP 12 Hex (White).pdf I think just plain not enough light and noticeably less than you have now.
 
"The peak is about 15' and the side walls are about 10' " Trains, suspect we are not talking full sized locomotives?
 

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