Design Lighting Programmer?

[AxlD1234]

I figured i would get everyone's opinion on this since i have not been in the "Professional" business before

Are Lighting Board programmers going out of style?
ie. Someone that sits with the designer and just programs the cues how the designer wants them?

I've also heard this fall under the Assistant Lighting Designer category?

 

[dthomas32308]

This is a yes and no situation. They are because most budgets are getting smaller so they can't afford to pay a programmer and also consoles are a lot easier to program in the past with a lot of designers having worked their way into a design position from the ground up so already know how to program so it is easier for them to just do it themselves if they know the console.

 

[CraigV]

It's a trade off. I have found that it's easier for me to do it myself, just because I don't need to communicate with another person about every aspect of my vision during Q2Q. However, when I can pay attention to what's happening in the grid instead of what's happening on the board, the end product is often of a higher caliber.

 

[soundman]

In arena rock and roll shows I have not seen one where the LD does the programming. Maybe Bryan Hartley on TSO? But that could be there aren't that many good Hog programmers these days.

 

[danTt]

At the professional level, I am embarrassed if my designer feels he/she needs to touch the console. They need to be focused on the stage, and how lights look on people, and not staring at the screens/console buttons. Even if the programmer is "only" the board-op, having a second set of eyes to catch mistakes/be focused on the technical side while the designer focuses on the artistic side is huge, and the board op learning the rig during tech is certainly a benefit. Having a dedicated programmer only makes it more successful, in my experience.

 

[xander]

I can only speak for NYC, as I haven't gotten out much lately, but the programmer is absolutely not going out of fashion. While producers still don't want to pay for one because they still don't understand why they are essential, if anything they are finally catching on. The fight to get a programmer budget line is probably getting a bit easier. The faster technology advances, the more important a programmer position is. With the number of moving lights rising, increase in pixel mapping, and the amount of tech time decreasing, having a person that is dedicated to the console is invaluable. No matter how well a designer knows the console, a good programmer will almost always know it better. That isn't meant to demean any designer, it's just the way it is. They are different jobs. The designer should be spending their time on designing, not programming.

As a programmer I can tell you from experience that many shows I have worked on would not be at the caliber they are if the designer was forced to program it themselves or have a board op that isn't a programmer do it. There is only a limited amount of time in the space. That amount of time is then limited further by the amount of time it can be dark. That is then limited further by the amount of time you have the talent available. Every cue that is written now has so much more to it then just record enter. There are presets/palettes to be recorded, fixtures to be marked, colors to be balanced, etc.

For example:
The designer makes a look on stage that focuses on something (e.g. an actor) stage left. (S)he then tells the programmer to take the opposite fixtures and mirror in on SR, but make it a warm blue and spin the gobo the opposite direction. Record this as a new cue. The LD then turns to the director and starts talking about the next look. While that discussion is happening the programmer is positioning the other lights, mixing a new color and marking everything in the appropriate cue. Simultaneously, the ALD is giving that cue placement to the PSM for calling and updating the paperwork with all the new cue and preset information.

If any one person on the design team is missing, things take longer. That is why these jobs exist. While, yes, budgets are getting tighter, the most common way producers are cutting back is on TIME. Space rental and labor are always the most expensive budget lines and so if you can take a whole week off of the rental agreement by adding a programmer for a few days during tech, it is worth it.

-Tim

 

[SteveB]

I figured i would get everyone's opinion on this since i have not been in the "Professional" business before

Are Lighting Board programmers going out of style?
ie. Someone that sits with the designer and just programs the cues how the designer wants them?

I've also heard this fall under the Assistant Lighting Designer category?

Completely out of the "real" theater end of the profession, I have a good friend who works for a top LD and does nothing but programming a GrandMA. Does the big stuff and flies all over the US. Mike has a home in Florida and is at the top of his game. Lots of folks specialize at programming in all types of markets, so no possibility it's going out of style, if anything it's a developing end of the business.

 

[AxlD1234]

Thanks for everyone's Opinion

at my work right now. we have a Assistant Lighting Designer which takes care of all the Lighting Paperwork (i.e Instrument Schedule, Dimmer Hookup, Channel Hookup, Magic Sheet) and then assists the other technicians in getting all the lights hung and working.
Then the LD and ALD sit down and the LD will program some. and the ALD will program some.

 

[dthomas32308]

Question for the programmers.. Are you guys not using visualizers to start pre programming before going into the venue then updating cues and adding the last minutes during tech or is everything done in the venue?

 

[jxgriffi]

Question for the programmers.. Are you guys not using visualizers to start pre programming before going into the venue then updating cues and adding the last minutes during tech or is everything done in the venue?

Rarely do I get the luxury of using a visualizer for a show. I'll do the patch, palettes, and a lot of my basic building blocks, but this is generally done without a visualizer. The only sort of visualizer I do is generally placing fixtures in GMA3D so that my stage view is slightly accurate. But as a programmer, I have my bag of tricks of effects and macros that I keep on my default show and that will get me in a good starting position for most programming stints.

A lot of times, the show is still being designed and laid out when I get the call and do not get final paperwork till I get to the venue. In that case, I start with my default show and clone and chafe types as much as I can to get the show built up and using my existing stuff.

 

[SteveB]

I LD and program for a rental hall with pretty much everything as one-offs, thus Pre-Viz isn't applicable.

EDIT: A friend of mine was the LD with a small'ish R&R tour last year. They were all over the west coast. He pre-visualized all the time using the GrandMA software. One fun experience was being delayed due to snow on a bus trip from Idaho to Denver. Bryan pre-cued the show on the tour bus, having built up the house rig. Walked in about 1/2 hr. before show, loaded from USB, did focus touchups and was in business.

If you are good at it it can be very useful.

 

[CraigV]

I primarily do youth shows these days and the blocking isn't even finalized until after opening night. We don't even get a real Q2Q. Luckily the directors always stop to reblock during the dress rehearsals so I have enough time to work out some programming then.

 

[z2oo]

In arena rock and roll shows I have not seen one where the LD does the programming. Maybe Bryan Hartley on TSO? But that could be there aren't that many good Hog programmers these days.

Yep, Bryan's been doing it for a while now (30 years now?). His west coast tour is run by someone similar to an ALD (so I understand), and he runs the east coast/designed the identical tours.

 

[AxlD1234]

Question for the programmers.. Are you guys not using visualizers to start pre programming before going into the venue then updating cues and adding the last minutes during tech or is everything done in the venue?

This is the downfall of the only thing i don't like about Hog....The visualizers are expensive for it. So we've never gotten the luxury of using it.

 

[dthomas32308]

Maybe y'all can explain this too... Why is Hog and MA the biggest contenders on Broadway and you don't see Avo or ChamSys used near as much?

I personally prefer those 2 as I started on an Avo Azure since my boss couldn't stand the surface of the board and when he wasn't out with the Pearl I'd get to use it then after leaving that company I got thrown on a ChamSys and have loved their product ever since so I am baffled by the lack of their use in theater as I've used Hog and MA boards but I feel I'm no where near as fast.

 

[AxlD1234]

From what ive heard. Hog and MA are a lot better at handling a lot of Moving Lights and LEDs, ETC is more for Theaters that don't have a lot of moving lights Chamsys is more used for DJ Lights/Christmas Displays
Avo ive never used or seen before.

 

[techieman33]

Maybe y'all can explain this too... Why is Hog and MA the biggest contenders on Broadway and you don't see Avo or ChamSys used near as much?

I personally prefer those 2 as I started on an Avo Azure since my boss couldn't stand the surface of the board and when he wasn't out with the Pearl I'd get to use it then after leaving that company I got thrown on a ChamSys and have loved their product ever since so I am baffled by the lack of their use in theater as I've used Hog and MA boards but I feel I'm no where near as fast.

I don't know that I've ever seen a Hog on a broadway tour, it's usually an MA or an Ion. You won't see AVO on broadway because it's primarily a rock and roll desk. It will do the theater stuff, just not as well and with as many features as something in the EOS family. Nearly anything else and most anyone would take an AVO, MA, or Hog over an ETC desk in a heartbeat, but ETC pretty well owns the theatrical side of things. I don't see that changing anytime soon since they have done a very good job at getting some form of their consoles in the high schools and colleges where more and more students are learning to program on them and developing a loyalty for their brand. It's almost always going to be easier and faster to spec the console your comfortable with and know what it can do than to spec one that you may know to be better at this or that but you haven't touched before.

 

[SteveB]

Used to be you saw Broadway shows with ML's using a Hog for the movers and an Obsession for the conventionally, they would then Midi link them together.

More recently it an Eos for conventionals, another Eos for ML's and maybe a 3rd for LED or walls. Or a GrandMA or 2.

One advantage to the full Eos route is you can merge cue lists and run the show on an Ion, saving on rental fees for the Eos.

Haven't heard of a Hog being used on Broadway in a few years, excepting the long running shows where its legacy gear.

 

[ScottT]

I can't think of any Broadway show that has opened this season that isn't on an Eos series. Saying the Eos doesn't do movers is quite false.

Dames at Sea, King Charles III, Fiddler on the Roof, Fun Home, GGLAM, Gin Game, School of Rock, A View From the Bridge, The King and I, Hand to God are all on Eos series consoles.

I know that The Crucible, Eclipsed, Waitress, and Shuffle Along.... are all going to be programed on Eos series consoles.

More recently it an Eos for conventionals, another Eos for ML's and maybe a 3rd for LED or walls. Or a GrandMA or 2.

It's weird, the dual programmer thing. I have many thoughts about this and will post more later.

Maybe y'all can explain this too... Why is Hog and MA the biggest contenders on Broadway and you don't see Avo or ChamSys used near as much?

Hog and MA are the biggest contenders on Broadway? Um. Not so.

 

[dthomas32308]

Scott, sorry after rereading my question i realized my choice of words did not convey what I meant because when I asked the question. I had just finished reading frenzy of PLSN, LiveDesign, etc and of the new Broadway shows and The Wiz TV special articles I read it seemed as if the main consoles I was seeing used where various Hog and MA2. I do know/understand that ETC has a good market share of the Broadway theaters using their consoles.

From what ive heard. Hog and MA are a lot better at handling a lot of Moving Lights and LEDs, ETC is more for Theaters that don't have a lot of moving lights Chamsys is more used for DJ Lights/Christmas Displays
Avo ive never used or seen before.

ChamSys, DJ/Christmas lights, really? Not to be rude but do you live under a rock because ChamSys makes a very good and stable line of consoles that are being used like Avolites primarily in the concert market but I know several designers/programmers who only use ChamSys no matter what type of show since their desks is basically a mash up of the better features from most of the major console manufacturers and I personally also use ChamSys for the largest majority of shows I do since they have a lot of features in theater stacking, timing, and pretty much everything can be customized to your likings. Sorry, I get a little defensive over people hating on ChamSys and downplaying its abilities since their computer dongle, MagicDMX, is pretty popular among people who dont need a full on console or cant afford the high costs of buying a console. With that said tho, I do have to stand up for MagicDMX as it is the same software that runs on consoles so programming it is exactly the same actions/paths taken as programming on a console just instead of faders/encoder wheels you have a mouse.