Lighting Proposal

I have a fine line here between making the administration POed, and getting my proposal looked at.
To jwl, Gaff is right.

(Gaff – thank the man.)

But seriously, the money from the craft show – who really controls where it goes? As I read your first post, it sounded like a PTA-type organization makes that decision, which I assumed to be independent of the school administration. But the post above suggests that the parents organization is tied closely to the administration/school.

On the other hand, if it is a PTA or PTO that can do what it wants, then my previous comment still applies: find out how the system really works: a group of officers with real or de facto power; some committee with real or de facto power; or a membership-driven-rule-of-order-following democracy.

Joe
 
The EA runs a little hotter but it is also brighter than the MCM. Check the Photometric data on the ETC datasheet downloads. I decided to go with EA for my theater and make the actors sweat a little more.

The main (and I do believe only) difference between the S4 PAR EA and the S4 PAR MCM is the reflector. The EA has an Enhanced Aluminum reflector, which is just your standard theatrical fixture reflector, as I understand it. The MCM has a Metal Cold Mirror reflector, which is like the reflector of a Source Four, and gets rid of alot more of the heat at the back of the fixture, which makes the beam cooler, and makes the fixture run cooler, because more heat is sent straight out the heat sink rather than being absorbed by the fixture. Also, due to the design and heat transfer of the MCM reflector, you cannot use a 750W lamp with a S4 PAR MCM.
 
Looking back over the whole thread again - if you want to do any kind of overhead gobo wash, get plenty of 50's. We usually do at least three gobo washes for dance concerts, mostly with 50's. They also make great set washers with gobos. 26's and 36's will be able to take care of most close FOH stuff and some of the overhead stuff, as well as sidelight positions and pipe ends.

Could you post a CAD file of the space for us to look at? That'd be a great help in making reccomendations.

Also, with that kind of budget, look in to getting some easy-to-use non-DMX toys like a pair of GAM filmFX units and some Apollo Smart Move rotators. You might also look in to getting another I-Cue or two or three, they're easy to program with a pair of faders.
 
To Alex:
While I don't think there will be a ton of use for 5ºs, I wanna add them to the proposal, because after my insight to the inner workings of our dept and school, we won't have another chance to purchase instruments. If going from the back of house lighting position to the CYC, the longest possible throw in my theatre is 90', not taking into account any downward angle. Given cost constraints, I was hoping to figure out how many instruments we need, then add 10. This gives us spares etc. Then from there if there was anything left over, add in accessories, lastly tubes.

To jwl:
The proposal gets submitted from every organization/dept to the administration, which then okays everything, compiles it in a list, and hands it to the Parents Association, who then ultimately decides on where the money goes.

To soundlight: Great note on MCMs not using 750W lamps. This makes the decision even harder in my mind. Now I'm really down a hole.

To soundlight:
I will post a quick snap of my venue, but I do not have a good quality anything. I've been conferring with other CB members, as to how best to go about drafting my plot in VW, given my circumstance, but I'll get something up here soon.

Some type of rotator or Film FX unit is an interesting idea, and is quite possibly worth considering. Unfortunately, even a "simple" I-Cue seems too complex for a high school. I love the one we have, but I think we'll stay at one. I'm hesitant to even add some type of rotator though, as I fear it will get underused, an forgotten about by the faculty. My TD did say "We need what? At least 8 color changers", but doesn't have a clue as to how to patch them in, program with them, set them up, etc. I also think they will just simply cost too much.
 
To Alex:
While I don't think there will be a ton of use for 5ºs, I wanna add them to the proposal, because after my insight to the inner workings of our dept and school, we won't have another chance to purchase instruments. If going from the back of house lighting position to the CYC, the longest possible throw in my theatre is 90', not taking into account any downward angle. Given cost constraints, I was hoping to figure out how many instruments we need, then add 10. This gives us spares etc. Then from there if there was anything left over, add in accessories, lastly tubes.
The reason that I suggest not investing in fixtures like the 5˚ is that they are significantly more expensive, and for the limited usage that you suggest, you are better served spending money on gear that will be used on a regular basis. Since you can buy 2 "standard" lens source 4s for the price of one 5˚ you get much more bang for your buck and more units that will get used on a regular basis. If you are concerned about getting equipment that will continue to be used it makes more sense to invest in equipment that is more useful and less specialized.
 
The reason that I suggest not investing in fixtures like the 5˚ is that they are significantly more expensive, and for the limited usage that you suggest, you are better served spending money on gear that will be used on a regular basis. Since you can buy 2 "standard" lens source 4s for the price of one 5˚ you get much more bang for your buck and more units that will get used on a regular basis. If you are concerned about getting equipment that will continue to be used it makes more sense to invest in equipment that is more useful and less specialized.
I've gotta go with Alex on this one - the number of times that you will actually use those instruments will be small, since you'll usually be putting a special on someone from much less of an angle - and 5 degree instruments eat budgets for breakfast.
 
I'm going to disagree with everybody and state that you should give them a picture of a Shogun with a price tage attached. They'll make the right decision. Who wouldn't choose a shogun?
 
To soundlight: Great note on MCMs not using 750W lamps. This makes the decision even harder in my mind. Now I'm really down a hole.

To soundlight:
Some type of rotator or Film FX unit is an interesting idea, and is quite possibly worth considering. Unfortunately, even a "simple" I-Cue seems too complex for a high school. I love the one we have, but I think we'll stay at one. I'm hesitant to even add some type of rotator though, as I fear it will get underused, an forgotten about by the faculty. My TD did say "We need what? At least 8 color changers", but doesn't have a clue as to how to patch them in, program with them, set them up, etc. I also think they will just simply cost too much.
1) Get EA pars. We have the EA model, the beam is still way cooler than a PAR64, and they're great fixtures. And you really don't need 750W lamps in most cases - the only time that we ever use 750's is for icue special fixtures, and on the 575 fixtures, they almost never reach full. This is in a venue with a 20' or so trim on most electrics. I'd stock mostly 575's - the output really is comprable to that of an FEL or a PAR64. ETC really scored with their engineering of the reflectors.
2) Film FX units = moving fire. Film FX units = moving water. They'll probably get used, if either of those effects are required. They look great on a cyc, too.
3) Good call on any type of color changer - if the school can't use an I-Cue well, there's no way that they're gonna figure out a scroller, LED fixture, Nexera or Seachanger.
4) Slightly off topic, but make sure to come up with a good rep plot before you leave the school - chances are it'll still be there when you get back.
 
Good points, sadly, agreed...

10ºs are in though, I presume.

Okay, this is SO rough, so don't laugh!

Also, Not everything is accurate. Some guesswork and rough measurements etc.

That and the end of my stage got cutoff.

Edit:
soundlight, the EA is the one that can handle the 750W lamp. So if I don't need it, why not go MCM? Or is it a price factor, at 80 bucks cheaper?

Double Edit:
Looking at that, and remembering, I should have 10 circuits/dimmers per lighting position, so that's a total of 60 circuits/dimmers in the canopy, not counting the other 10 houselight circuits/dimmers, which don't really count but could be used sorta maybe no.

Triple Edit:
There really only is room for 10 instruments per position, except you could squeeze some more in on the side positions. We don't use fresnels, for some reason, and we don't use instruments on booms, backstage, on the columns, on the electrics, etc, as often as we should. So I'm looking somewhere around the ballpark of 75 instruments? Wow, that's a LOT more than I imagined.
 
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soundlight, the EA is the one that can handle the 750W lamp. So if I don't need it, why not go MCM? Or is it a price factor, at 80 bucks cheaper?
Once again, you are going for bang for your buck. The advantage of the MCM S4 PAR are not great enough for you to spend an extra $80 on them. If you were to buy 10, that is $800 you would save for other more useful equipment. Plus, the lamp flexibility of the EA could be a big benefit.

Yes, I would consider 10˚ units, but from your Slot 4 they are going to give you a smaller than 10' diameter area. You may do better with more 14˚ units than 10˚ I would consider a small number of 10˚ if any at all just for specials. You think that you have a long throw, but when you do the math you may find that you are better off with different instrumentation.
 
Looking at that, and remembering, I should have 10 circuits/dimmers per lighting position, so that's a total of 60 circuits/dimmers in the canopy, not counting the other 10 houselight circuits/dimmers, which don't really count but could be used sorta maybe no.
Triple Edit:
There really only is room for 10 instruments per position, except you could squeeze some more in on the side positions. We don't use fresnels, for some reason, and we don't use instruments on booms, backstage, on the columns, on the electrics, etc, as often as we should. So I'm looking somewhere around the ballpark of 75 instruments? Wow, that's a LOT more than I imagined.
How big (kW) are the dimmers... remember you can (possibly) 2-fer instruments together... where you can fit them.

Do you have ANY lighting poisitions/circuits on stage? Are they already properly equipped? (Or, are they just ignored?)

Also, how high are the positions you've indicated above the stage?
 
Okay, point taken on the EA, I'll take the hit on gel. Does it noticeably consume gel faster?

All dimmers are 2.4kW, the theatre is dimmer-per-circuit. there is a column stage left and stage right, with 3 circuits ground level just off stage, and 2 circuits balcony level, on the other side of the column is about 6-8 more circuits, all in the audience balcony. Then, we have maybe 10 or so circuits scattered backstage. One doesn't work (I think the wiring is bad), and several others are used for the fake 2nd electric. The, we have the 1st Elec, which has 10 circuit itself, 6 used for wash instruments (old cyc lights).

Pie, the plot is far from done. And I need to learn how to make one first. :mrgreen:

10º are essentially 6x22ºs, of which we have maybe 8 in the inventory. I like 'em. They're pretty tight. I think realistically 5ºs are not worth it, though I can see using them for some specific ultra tight special or pattern projection. We could definitely do with less of those, though.

Yes, I hadn't had a good time to work out all the throws and really conceptually "get" them, but 14ºs seem ideal from the back slot, which currently has one instrument (it shoots through a hole in the sound shell).

Seeing now that 36ºs are 6x9s, that seems pretty wide for most of my applications. How do others feel about these? a 6x9 at my theater eats up a big ol' chunk of my stage. For cost reasons, could probably do 36ºs and 50ºs, and not worry about 70ºs, or 90ºs.

Hmm... oh the options!

These don't come with pattern holders, do they?

I'd throw in a dozen pattern holders...
 
Wow this thread is moving fast!

Yes get a bid from your local dealer... ALWAY get a bid from your local dealer. Plus I'll give you a couple of tips in P.M. of national dealers who gave us some really good bids for you to consider.

Shipping can easily add a thousand bucks or more depending on the number of instruments ordered. So be very clear you want exact shipping quotes not shipping estimates in your bid.

Rotators... how often do you use them? How much does it cost to rent one? Not much. Rotators costing $400-800 depending on the model... and don't forget another couple hundred for the power supply and DMX cables. Is it worth it to give up instruments you can use all the time for an expensive product you'll only use once or twice a year? A good friend of mine insists no school should ever buy their own rotators. In his opinion you are paying a lot of money for something you can rent for very little, is fragile and likely to break if not cared for, and you rarely will actually use. With my huge budget I only got two rotators because I tend to agree. If I need more, I'll rent them.
 
Also what about some 23-50 zooms for on stage use... gobos etc. They are expensive but cheaper than a S4, and three lenses. A few could come in quite handy.
 
Okay, point taken on the EA, I'll take the hit on gel. Does it noticeably consume gel faster?
All dimmers are 2.4kW, the theatre is dimmer-per-circuit. there is a column stage left and stage right, with 3 circuits ground level just off stage, and 2 circuits balcony level, on the other side of the column is about 6-8 more circuits, all in the audience balcony. Then, we have maybe 10 or so circuits scattered backstage. One doesn't work (I think the wiring is bad), and several others are used for the fake 2nd electric. The, we have the 1st Elec, which has 10 circuit itself, 6 used for wash instruments (old cyc lights).
Pie, the plot is far from done. And I need to learn how to make one first. :mrgreen:
10º are essentially 6x22ºs, of which we have maybe 8 in the inventory. I like 'em. They're pretty tight. I think realistically 5ºs are not worth it, though I can see using them for some specific ultra tight special or pattern projection. We could definitely do with less of those, though.
Yes, I hadn't had a good time to work out all the throws and really conceptually "get" them, but 14ºs seem ideal from the back slot, which currently has one instrument (it shoots through a hole in the sound shell).
Seeing now that 36ºs are 6x9s, that seems pretty wide for most of my applications. How do others feel about these? a 6x9 at my theater eats up a big ol' chunk of my stage. For cost reasons, could probably do 36ºs and 50ºs, and not worry about 70ºs, or 90ºs.
Hmm... oh the options!
These don't come with pattern holders, do they?
I'd throw in a dozen pattern holders...
For some reason I've got the number 26' stuck in my head about your space charc, for overstage posistions...is that right? If it is I'd definelty get a 36's and 50's. As straight downlight they'll be in the 10-15' range (depending on barrell) but remember that's on the stage. At 6' above the stage deck, where most people's faces are, they'll be smaller.
 
Also what about some 23-50 zooms for on stage use... gobos etc. They are expensive but cheaper than a S4, and three lenses. A few could come in quite handy.
Did you really suggest zooms for pattern projection? I thought we were friends :rolleyes:

IMO, zooms are just units with more moving parts that can get broken in a high school
 
Keep in mind that the Prices of source fours (at ALL dealers) is going up at the end of the year, ETC is hiking prices slightly so now would be the best time to get fixtures. Lime light is a good place to look if you are close to them. They are willing to ship you fully assembled fixtures (with the connector on and the fixture burned in) for the 2007 price while supplies last. I just got the email yesterday from limelight that stated the price of a source four is going to go up. Right now production advantage is also a good place to look for fixtures.
 
Did you really suggest zooms for pattern projection? I thought we were friends :rolleyes:
IMO, zooms are just units with more moving parts that can get broken in a high school

Easy there big fella just suggesting something flexible. It's a high school so once Charc leaves no one will know what a gobo is anyway.
 
Okay, let me see if I can hit all the points.

First, in Modern Art History (I'm taking an art major...) I did some math, of all the instruments I had in the air for Amadeus (not all instruments total) how they were lamped, etc, and I came out with the power consumption of this instruments at full, and the power consumption of the same number of lamps, but 575W.

It broke down to 57,000W and 36,255W. So we have over 20kW of energy savings right there. I've submitted a request to the Business Office for PECO energy bills for our most energy efficient building. I plan to determine the energy draw, and the price per kWh. (Like the energy saved could power this building for 3 hours.)

I'll have to start working in specific instrument count breakdowns too. I need to factor in the price of approximately 80 female connectors as well, to rewire both of our old theaters.

Zooms? Not Wise. Too big, heavy, expensive, and breakable. And my main reason is not to confuse our dept head. She already thinks all of the "Fource Fours" in the air are zooms. I have to remind her that they're 19ºs... I Would love some though... but the bulky and heaviness sorta defeats the point of lighter instruments anyways.

Gaff, PM received, I'll look into it, but I noticed one of the dealers mentioned didn't ship complete instruments. I'd hoped to get gel-frame, safety, lamp, c-clamp, included with the unit. It might breakdown in a package deal, I'll call for details.

I won't be getting 2007 prices, and this is a real pain! Should I specify 2008 prices? Are those in yet? We wouldn't get these instruments until summer.

Rotators, agreed, not worth it. We have one Vortex 360 rotator. That should be enough. Hopefully we won't ever need two.

Grog, yep, 26' or so feet should be the height of the 1st slot over the stage. It might be a little higher, like 28' though.

I'm focusing now on cost breakdowns, images, etc. to attach to the proposal. This still has to beat everyone else out in the school! :(
 

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