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Linking rooms with signal

Discussion in 'Sound, Music, and Intercom' started by mstaylor, Jun 18, 2009.

  1. mstaylor

    mstaylor Well-Known Member Departed Member

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    I have another problem with the same building, same system. I have a building with meeting rooms of various sizes and I need to link some of them together. The main problem area is the two main rooms are about 200ft apart. The sound board is 2 1/2 up in one room. I need to get signal from one to the other, in essense simulcasting programs. It has been suggested that I use cat5 for the run. Is this OK at that distance or should it be line level on a balanced cable.
    I am basically a light guy that gets thrown in on these projects because my bosses think I know way more than I do. I keep telling them this isn't so but I keep pulling the jobs off. Thanks for any help you guys can give me.
     
  2. tjrobb

    tjrobb Active Member

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    Between two switches or other powered networking devices and with standard cat5e you can have ~100m, with best practice about 300' (the extra 30' is for unavoidable loss and patching). If you need to go longer, then another medium is the best idea. Note that this is for networking (Ethernet), and depending on your usage your mileage may vary.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2009
  3. JohnHartman

    JohnHartman Member

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    Just as a reference
    BTX Technologies Inc.

    Not recommending the site or the manufacturer, but it is possible to send the distance you are looking for any then some. You can also look at fiber, but that can get expensive.
     
  4. Derrick

    Derrick Member

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    If I can parapharse your question.

    "I'm going to run wire from our console to these other rooms. Can I use Cat5 or should I use a balanced, twisted, shielded cable?"

    If you are NOT using an analog / digital convertor and are strictly connecting to a line out on your console or other analog output device, then the answer is, NO don't use the CAt5, go with a twisted Pair shielded cable.
     
  5. Chris15

    Chris15 CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    Ok now... I have to agree with Derrick, I'm still not sure what is wanted from the original post,it's a tad incoherent.

    Now UTP ought to avoided for carrying analog audio, period. It's not shielded and will just cause headache after headache.

    Discussions on the "limit" of 100m of Ethernet (which is meant to be 90m installed, 10m for patch leads at each end) aren't relevant to this case and there are other factors in that anyway (Cat 5, 5e or 6, solid or stranded, number of joins, length untwisted at termination etc etc.)

    Running 100m on copper with line level audio will be fine, make sure it's a respectable cable that's actually twisted and has reasonable coverage of shield and you'll be fine.
     
  6. mstaylor

    mstaylor Well-Known Member Departed Member

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    OK, I'll try the question with more clarity, remember I'm a light guy faking it as a sound guy.
    We are linking the main preformance room to a secondary room. What the main purpose of the linking is to carry announcements from the main room to remote areas. I have already put a system in to cover my lobby, outer vestable and outside the entrance area. This is the system that has the power problem with the Furman. That system is currently tied to the main room via a temp stranded cable. The supplier's idea is tie it in with cat 5 with a digital/analog converter.
    My boss is asking me to come up with solutions to add the signal to the secondary preformance room.
    The main purpose is for wrestling events we do, regional and national events. They need to be able to announce bouts, signal originating in the main room, into the out laying rooms and vestubules. So 98% of the time it only will be talking, with occasional music.
    Each remote system has it's own amps and mixing boards, it just needs signal.
    Hopefully this will make my problem clearer.
     
  7. Derrick

    Derrick Member

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    What device will be driving (supplying signal to) the line to the remote room? Analog or digital?

    You indicate a mixer will be present to receive the signal from the source. Analog or digital?

    If you are in the analog word already, just run the balanced, twisted, shielded pair from your source to the remote location.

    No need to "get fancy" with a/d, d/a convertors, Which are required if you want to run CAT5 or greater UTP.

    D
     
  8. museav

    museav CBMod CB Mods Departed Member

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    UTP cable can be shielded and the tightly twisted UTP pairs actually make it fairly insensitive to induced noise since it is greatly induced in both conductors equally and then addressed by a differential input. And when people refer to audio over UTP I find that they are often referring to using transformer based passive or active baluns than just the cable, which are two different situations. And to clarfy some other comments, these devices are converting between cables types, they are not usually actually converting the signal type or making the analog signal digital and back, audio over Ethernet or a network requires that but those are also different than point-to-point audio over UTP.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2009
  9. epimetheus

    epimetheus Well-Known Member

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    I'd go direct balanced connection with something like Belden 8760. It's shielded twisted pair #18. Solder XLR's or TRS 1/4" connectors on each end and go. You may need some hum eliminators for ground loop hum issues.
     
  10. mrb

    mrb Active Member

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    As I mentioned in a similar thread, be careful running cables between different spaces in a building. You have issues such as penetrating fire walls, penetrating floors, passing through plenum space, local codes that may require the cable be in conduit, etc, etc. An electrican should run the cable, you can pick the cable and terminate it to your liking...
     
  11. epimetheus

    epimetheus Well-Known Member

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    Good advice ^^.
     
  12. museav

    museav CBMod CB Mods Departed Member

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    Very good points but you do have to be careful on the party performing the work. Here in Georgia it might more appropriately be a licensed Low Voltage Contractor rather than an Electrician. In some areas it may have to be a Union Electrician. So perhaps more generically, a properly licensed and qualified party familiar with the local code requirements.
     
  13. mrb

    mrb Active Member

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    Dont know if the OP is in California, Georgia, or some state that doesnt even have licensing. I used the term 'Electrician' as meaning the proper person for the job, depending on the situation at the jobsite.

    offtopic:
    When would it have to be a union electrician? If its a union jobsite, or are there cities where union electricians have to do all the work? Im unfamiliar with how that works...
     
  14. museav

    museav CBMod CB Mods Departed Member

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    In some geographic areas, for example New York City and St. Louis, the Electrician will be an IBEW shop. And they operate such that they pull all cable, the typical scenario is that the racks are pre-built and tested and then plug into the already terminated cabling installed by the E.C., in some cases you have a wall plate with all the terminations to which the rack then connects. However, there have been cases where they wanted even the racks to have an IBEW sticker on them before they would let them on site. And I have been told by multiple people that on some projects in the Northeast the AV Contractors have to pay for someone from the E.C. to 'supervise' their work, often meaning that they pay a Union Electrician to sit there or actually pay them while they train them.

    The one nice thing is that because this is a common situation, the E.C.'s in those areas do often have personnel experienced in working with low voltage systems and cabling. In comparison, some other states are 'right to work' states and have quite different situations where the E.C. may or may not be a Union shop. In these cases the E.C. often had very limited, if any, experience and knowledge in low voltage systems and thus they typically stay out of those areas of work.

    I remember one project a Contractor in Chicago told me about where apparently they were working direct for the Owner when the Union E.C. already on the project demanded that they install all the cable for whatever cost they asked or else they would strike. That Owner apparently went on the offensive, telling the G.C. that they would shut down the job entirely if they were held hostage like that by their subcontractors, but many others would rather avoid any such confrontations.
     
  15. goodguy

    goodguy Member

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    might want to try it wireless if you have the equipment. use the type of cable intended for electric guitard (1/2" male) linking your output to the wireless transmitter.

    plug the ouput from the receiver into the amp/mixer in your remote location

    many uhf wireless systems will transmit several hundred feet

    many uhf systems will
     
  16. Chris15

    Chris15 CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    Sorry Brad but by definition it can't... it's Unshielded Twisted Pair. Sure you can get STP (Shielded Twisted Pair) (and in fact I believe all Cat 7 is shielded to get the requisite bandwidth).

    I'd avoid wireless for a fixed install where copper will work as easily...

    I think adding converter boxes will be more expensive than just running a piece of 2 core shielded...
     
  17. mstaylor

    mstaylor Well-Known Member Departed Member

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    I think you have convinced me to go with standard cable and forget the cat 5. Thanks guys.
     
  18. museav

    museav CBMod CB Mods Departed Member

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    Oops! You're right, I was thinking CAT and typing UTP.
     
  19. Anonymous067

    Anonymous067 BANNED USER

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    You know, I'm kinda wondering what school is letting students/non district staff run cables through the school for permanent use. Thats a new one. Our school would expel us if we ASKED to do that...

    I seriously think this is something that a professional needs to be brought in for.

    If you're a light guy and not sound, I think you need to flat out tell your boss, hey, I don't know about this, so I don't wanna make the call about it. Done.
     
  20. Chris15

    Chris15 CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    I'm curious where the idea of this being in a school has come from... I don't recall reading as such and was more getting the impression it was some sort of arena with associated function or meeting rooms...
     

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