Live Projection in High School Concert?
- Thread starterDarSax
- Start date
The switcher I'm trying to get working is a Videonics MXPro DV. (manual)
If that doesn't work, I'm going to try and get an Panasonic MX-50, I know how to use it already (helps that its so exceedinly simple).
Edit: After going through the manual, seems like a fairly straightforward setup after all. I've heard rumors it might be broken irregardless, but in theory, the machine seems very simple.
If that doesn't work, I'm going to try and get an Panasonic MX-50, I know how to use it already (helps that its so exceedinly simple).
Edit: After going through the manual, seems like a fairly straightforward setup after all. I've heard rumors it might be broken irregardless, but in theory, the machine seems very simple.
Last edited:
soundlight
Well-Known Member
the videonics has the usual sort of wierd preview of the inputs on one monitor, it will do the job, and if you want and have the cables you need you could run firewire from your cameras (there is a lot of long firewire cables on ebay these days at pretty low prices.
Personally I like the MX-50 I use a few of them with Bob Rall's mod and they work great. Need to remember that they don't have a traditional preview mode so you need to get tv's with loop thru so you can preview. I'v used some Panasonic 450 quad units for a small setup where you can get 4 inputs on one monitor but it is nicer with 4 full sized monitors on input, and one for output. Pretty much bullet proof.
Sharyn
Personally I like the MX-50 I use a few of them with Bob Rall's mod and they work great. Need to remember that they don't have a traditional preview mode so you need to get tv's with loop thru so you can preview. I'v used some Panasonic 450 quad units for a small setup where you can get 4 inputs on one monitor but it is nicer with 4 full sized monitors on input, and one for output. Pretty much bullet proof.
Sharyn
I'm running coax from the cameras to the switcher (RCA on cameras -> Coax -> BNC into Monitors -> RCA into board. Sounds complicated, but I might be able to get all of my cabling needs for $0 just from the school.
I have a mini monitor setup so I can check the feeds of the cameras--I wouldn't depend on the Videonic's "preview" windows on their menu screen.
As for the MX-50, yea I know, I went to a media-heavy middle school so I used one pretty extensively, and the thing's a breeze. The only problem is actually being able to get one for the show, so I'll have to see how that all works out.
By the way, in response to an earlier part of your post I missed--what is "frame sync?" You mentioned that it eliminates video feedback?
I have a mini monitor setup so I can check the feeds of the cameras--I wouldn't depend on the Videonic's "preview" windows on their menu screen.
As for the MX-50, yea I know, I went to a media-heavy middle school so I used one pretty extensively, and the thing's a breeze. The only problem is actually being able to get one for the show, so I'll have to see how that all works out.
By the way, in response to an earlier part of your post I missed--what is "frame sync?" You mentioned that it eliminates video feedback?
the way these mixers work is that they have to syncronize the signals so that you can get a glitch free effect or switch. In a pro setup in a big tv studion what you do is all the cameras are genlocked to the same sync source, and then you actually tweak the timing so that the different cable lengths are all accounted for so that the switch and the camera inputs are all doing the scanning fully syncronized.
the way the panasonic and the videonics do this is they have a digital single frames store with one each for the two busses, so what happens is your input on the a bus and your selected input on the b buss are stored in this memory area, and the actual switch or effect is done via the buffer or frame sync. this is why for instance you introduce a frame delay when you go thru the switch. since this frame delay is 1/29.97 of a second or one frame, there really is no direct feedback from your camera to the projector etc, so you don't get the feed back problem you can of course get the infinite image situation where you see the image on the screen which then shows an image of the screen etc, but not the feed back problems
Also depending on the projector technology you are using DLP for instance also adds another single frame delay. This is why when you go thru the switcher/.mixer and then the projector you can if you look very carefully see the video lag the audio by typically two frames or approx 1/15 of a second.
If you can try to use good coax, keep the number of connections down.
For this sort of stuff we use the multiple cable output of the consumer camera which ends in a rca, then we use rg6 coax, with F connectors like the ones the cable companies use, and have screw in female rca to f connector adaptors, then on the rest of the system we use bnc.
An other alternative but sometimes it gets tricky since the cables are sticky is there is a simple adaptor that takes the s video and converts it to female rca and then you just need to use either an f connector to male rca or a bnc to male rca adaptor, I tend not to use this system since it hangs out of the camera too much, has too much weight, and so we use the typical multi av cable that comes with the camcorder.
Make sure you check the camcorders to make sure that they don't need the remote to turn off the display in the video feed, canon for instance is notorious for this problem, with people running around with remotes to get the display off.
Typically it seems to work best using auto focus, but have manual adjustment of the exposure. None of these mixers have tally systems so the person mixing needs to tell the people what camera they are GOING to, usually the people will know what camera you are on based on the screen, and you will probably be constantly looking at the preview to have them adjust the exposure. Coms to the cameras is important to make sure you get a good selection of shots, make sure that you tend have close ups. Also remember that most consumer camcorders do not have manual white balance, they do the white balance automatically on power up, so a good practice is to have the cameras focus on a white surface that you want to have look white. Otherwise with say bastard amber or other warming gels everything will look pretty red.
Don't put the screens too far to the side of the stage, you want to make sure that the audience can see the stage and the screen at the same time (unless of course they are in the mosh pit ;-))
In my experience it really enhances the experience, makes the production really look like a pro concert. In a project we did with Metallica and Godsmack we had two very different approaches to video
It was in the round, with four screens all up high over the stage, from the four sides. Godsmack used the screens for typical video close ups, etc. Metallica did a more security camera type deal. they had the quad and up displays on the screens, used a lot if simultaneous shots, and had small lipstick cameras on each mic stand.
Both offered interesting enhancements, Personally I think the Godsmack system was more watchable
Sharyn
Sharyn
the way the panasonic and the videonics do this is they have a digital single frames store with one each for the two busses, so what happens is your input on the a bus and your selected input on the b buss are stored in this memory area, and the actual switch or effect is done via the buffer or frame sync. this is why for instance you introduce a frame delay when you go thru the switch. since this frame delay is 1/29.97 of a second or one frame, there really is no direct feedback from your camera to the projector etc, so you don't get the feed back problem you can of course get the infinite image situation where you see the image on the screen which then shows an image of the screen etc, but not the feed back problems
Also depending on the projector technology you are using DLP for instance also adds another single frame delay. This is why when you go thru the switcher/.mixer and then the projector you can if you look very carefully see the video lag the audio by typically two frames or approx 1/15 of a second.
If you can try to use good coax, keep the number of connections down.
For this sort of stuff we use the multiple cable output of the consumer camera which ends in a rca, then we use rg6 coax, with F connectors like the ones the cable companies use, and have screw in female rca to f connector adaptors, then on the rest of the system we use bnc.
An other alternative but sometimes it gets tricky since the cables are sticky is there is a simple adaptor that takes the s video and converts it to female rca and then you just need to use either an f connector to male rca or a bnc to male rca adaptor, I tend not to use this system since it hangs out of the camera too much, has too much weight, and so we use the typical multi av cable that comes with the camcorder.
Make sure you check the camcorders to make sure that they don't need the remote to turn off the display in the video feed, canon for instance is notorious for this problem, with people running around with remotes to get the display off.
Typically it seems to work best using auto focus, but have manual adjustment of the exposure. None of these mixers have tally systems so the person mixing needs to tell the people what camera they are GOING to, usually the people will know what camera you are on based on the screen, and you will probably be constantly looking at the preview to have them adjust the exposure. Coms to the cameras is important to make sure you get a good selection of shots, make sure that you tend have close ups. Also remember that most consumer camcorders do not have manual white balance, they do the white balance automatically on power up, so a good practice is to have the cameras focus on a white surface that you want to have look white. Otherwise with say bastard amber or other warming gels everything will look pretty red.
Don't put the screens too far to the side of the stage, you want to make sure that the audience can see the stage and the screen at the same time (unless of course they are in the mosh pit ;-))
In my experience it really enhances the experience, makes the production really look like a pro concert. In a project we did with Metallica and Godsmack we had two very different approaches to video
It was in the round, with four screens all up high over the stage, from the four sides. Godsmack used the screens for typical video close ups, etc. Metallica did a more security camera type deal. they had the quad and up displays on the screens, used a lot if simultaneous shots, and had small lipstick cameras on each mic stand.
Both offered interesting enhancements, Personally I think the Godsmack system was more watchable
Sharyn
Sharyn
Not going to lie, I didn't completely understand all the tech. jargon in your post, but I think I got 99% of it. Thanks for the info! And for the cabling tips.
As for the placement of the screen, those were my thoughts exactly, heh. And glad to hear the video helped so much!
----
As for the cameras, I'm finding out right now which cameras I'm going to have to work with. Most likely, the clunky VHS tape (fun fact: I had to look up online what those tapes were called again) kind, where the entire tape is held in the camcorder and it's big and bulky and ugly. It will be...icky, but hopefully it'll work.
As for the placement of the screen, those were my thoughts exactly, heh. And glad to hear the video helped so much!
----
As for the cameras, I'm finding out right now which cameras I'm going to have to work with. Most likely, the clunky VHS tape (fun fact: I had to look up online what those tapes were called again) kind, where the entire tape is held in the camcorder and it's big and bulky and ugly. It will be...icky, but hopefully it'll work.
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