Conventional Fixtures Lycian 1209 Midget HP Dual ended lamp version?

ship

Senior Team Emeritus
Premium Member
I’m currently working on the above fixture as per a customer repair in a factory service center. First one I have worked on, but almost 30 years of experience+, easy fixture to work on. http://www.lycian.com/lycian_specsheet_1209_01.pdf

I note as opposed to Lycian’s website that instead of the single ended MSR 575HR lamp currently specified, it’s using a dual ended HMI 575DXS lamp. Is this an earlier version that supported the lamp from only one end of it? http://www.lycian.com/lycian_instructionmanual_1209.pdf

I like the ease of bench focus of the fixture, and even the 1/4" backing out of the lamp housing concept for bench focus due to the dark spot as per manual bench focus. Imagine centering a lamp with a dark spot to find it's center in the beam! That's cool! And if you do not have it.. you need to do work in dialing the lamp back. (I'm putting lock nuts on that adjustment... it is an exploding lamp if someone (below) should be that innept in doing bench focus.

Unfortunately this fixture described as “blowing lamps” had some easily diagnosed problems in terminal connection, or could be an old ballast issue. Could be the lack of nut on on the lens side of the lamp - a ring terminal just floating without attachment (or when I found it floating inside the fixture). Found the spare (or perhaps un-known missing) lamp... floating around in the fixture housing, also found one of two missing nuts (lamp installed & spare) to this second nut floating about in the ballast housing. Seemingly a systemic problem in connecting the lens side of the lamp in putting a knurled knob nut on the end of the dual ended lamp supported from one side.

Literally could not slide out the lamp housing tray until I counter adjusted the lamp against the reflector preventing it from removal. Most likely a crew using it that has read the manual on the fixture... Operator error given a lamp with one end electrically connected... the other end with the wire floating about, and no nut to attach it anywhere near it.

A question, given it’s a low wattage 575w lamp, is a dual ended lamp only supported from one end sufficient support for that HMI lamp? This given the lamp carriage assembly slides out 1/4 for bench focus -good idea, but if that front end cable if not enough in slack... it might be a stress on the lamp?

Other details, most fasteners were corroded and rusted if not missing. The only way to access the dual ended lamp was from the top cover. Given this a mix of (some missing) socket head cap screws and phillips screws (missing) between top cover and rear lamp tray for use in bench focus were gone or in use in the wrong place. Assuming anyone on-site read the manual on how to bench focus it - given the bad bench focus found. Bad situation.

Assuming the lack of bench focus - seriously bad, and missing the lamp's thumb screw knob on the bad lamp to attach ring terminal to the lamp... Possibly know why they are blowing lamps... Not easy to install from the top cover a lamp. One of my assistants also noted that the top cover safety switch had it’s wires cut. Yea, that was in the manual not to do. Email into Lycian in not seeing where they jumped that connection as to short this.

Won’t know until I replace basically all fasteners/re-tap holes, do gate assembly resurfacing, touch up paint, clean lenses & fixture, re-terminate ring terminals, re-surface lamp base, etc. Most screws and nuts on the fixture replaced with stainless steel ones.

Getting the chopper/iris assembly was interesting.... after figuring out that if you un-seat the condenser lens, you can get to this assembly hex screws. Once the gobo slot is out, you still cannot get the chopper/iris assembly out of the fixture short of removing it’s side walls. What a bad design on this part - though I do love it’s chopper assembly mechanics though. They were in better condition than they look - good time for a service call to bring them back to almost new. I had to cut some slots into the bottom of the carriage so as to get the gate assembly out. They were in a non-structural place that should have been there.
TBA the rest of the service call and if a bad ballast.... Won't know until I try the fixes to the obvious problems.
 

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ship

Senior Team Emeritus
Premium Member
Been a while since I resurfaced an Iris and chopper assembly. Normally one of my assistants does this... just not as well as I do. Only shreded a nuckle skin with the grinder twice.. Caught the iris and choppers at just the right time. Completely re-surfaced an brought back to practically new condition.

Note the Iris grinder jig - one hole for the rounded end of the shutter - a #30 drill bit size (the size used for 1/8" rivets). The other size hole on the jig plate is 5/32" for the more squared off side of the iris leaf. Each hole countersunk slightly and hold onto and apply tension to the opposing pound rivet on the leaf sticking up = or that leaf will get damaged in sailing away.

Yes it is possible to replace these pound rivets... sometimes if they come off... Also, there are three or possibly four general types of Iris in use for Leko's or Follow Spots that I'm aware of. This is the easiest to service, and only one other I know of can be taken apart... and as a general note, save bad iris's - as still viable leafs can often be re-used in other fixtures if you can resurface or save it and get it into the assembly. Otherwise, what is a bad iris replaced in one case, might not be as bad as the next need for it. Same with choppers and Dowsers. Remember the sharp edge of choppers or dowsers - they are as important as the surface to even grind flat plentium edge without sanding scarring after as the surface.

Debate again on my part on surfacing the bright work with Spray on graphite rated for 850 degrees, but is black in retaining heat, or PTFE spray rated for 646 degrees, but is a milky clear in not retaining as much heat. I used the PTFE in this case, but have good results in both cases.
Project going well. Note the first photo, corrosion, but more important as per a photo to show what "open" looks like and where the arm is. Take lots of assembly photos.
 

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techieman33

Well-Known Member
We have 2 of the double ended version in our theater. I'm not sure exactly how old they are, probably 25-30 years old. They've been rock solid for us. We haven't had to do anything to them other than change the lamps as they age. Which have always come out pretty easily. It sounds like the one your working on has had a much rougher life than ours. Probably a mix of bouncing around in trucks and time outdoors. And then had that compounded by people making "temporary" repairs that have become permanent.
 

ship

Senior Team Emeritus
Premium Member
Thanks, for the info that this lamp is not rare. I suspect this answers the question also if mounting the lamps from one end is sufficient for support of the lamp. Can you post photos of the front - towards the lens assembly? Just seems odd a ring terminal with the lamp nut appairent.... How given the back plate in the manual for focus, but top cover for lamp install do you deal with this? Kind of confused in designed appairently for one single ended lamp as per the manual, and it's a good concept... but using another lamp.
Bonus is that top plate safety switch - where does it get wired to and how is it done in cable path?

To be clear, this is not my companie's fixture - it belongs to another lighting company. I'm factory authorized service center for it. And as per other follow spots my department does for many companies or venue's, I do the full service call on it. Whole concept of servicing follow spots in my department started with my restoration for the museum of old lighting fixtures. We do the mechanical, the Moving Lights repair dept. does the electronic if we have a problem. We do the.... It's just a Leko, the other department does the voodo electronics part unless something easy enough for us to figure out. Works well, and after that, ballast to the factory is simple enough to do.
Our own road fixtures... are supervised but not much worked on by my department.... they should be and is probably coming at some point once I get more people. Instead we service around +20 fixtures for Live Nation venues and a few other venues in the Chicago area in growing for service to more in the area. This company and more in adding.
Above detail in work done as a reason why.
 

techieman33

Well-Known Member
I'll try to get some picture for you today or maybe Tuesday depending on how crazy things get between dance recitals and having our roof replaced.
 

techieman33

Well-Known Member
I got some pictures tonight after rehearsal. I think the issue your having with lamp changing is that your not sliding the back plate that it attached to back far enough. I'm 99% sure that at one point while in a hurry I changed a lamp from the back without even opening the top up. Though it is easier when you can get at it from both sides. The safety switch and wire routing from the top is in some pictures, I didn't open the bottom of the unit up for pictures there, but I can do that tomorrow if you need them or any other pictures of different angles, just let me know.

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ship

Senior Team Emeritus
Premium Member
Figured it out today. The hood safety switch is in-line with the circuit breaker. Something about that type K 150c wiring from the circuit breaker to the circuit board didn't seem like the rest of the wiring inside the ballast area. Also, the same wiring type that was cut from the micro switch, and a different QD crimp to the circuit board. Still no reply from Steve from Lycian, but might be on vacation.

Thanks especially on the bench focus photo for how much screw thread / closer to the base of the fixture the bench focus is - I didn't take sufficient photos. I did put idiot stop nuts on the end of my screws though for the bench focus. "tech people" who are self assured of their abilities, especially those that use power tools... might be so convinced of their ability and knowledge, that they might un-screw a focus screw before the lamp breaks against the reflector.... Best to put a stop safety on the end of the focus screw as a stop. How much do these lamps cost each saving thing.

I checked in concern about doing it this way, and the safety micro switch for the hood is rated for the 10 Amps of the circuit breaker. I also believe, that given the circuit board labeling, and how it's wired... that should the cover or circuit breaker be tripped, it won't kill the cooling fans for the lamp.... another concern. At least I believe this is how it's wired. On the other hand, that micro switch at the top is recieving line voltage with exposed terminals to it. In repair/replacement of it... I have replaced the 16ga type K heat wire switch conductors with the exact same, but unlike the above photos sleeved them with 10ga Silicone coated fiberglass sleeving so as to help with abrasion given a line voltage conductor. And have high temp 4:1 heat shrink on the way to insulate the actual screw terminals of the micro switch. Not sure how I will support this wire from the ballast yet, but I have high temp. cable ties at least in stock to train this switch cable.

It's an upgrade for safety, as with replacing most fasteners and parts with stainless steel or brass where serviced - totally corroded. I am also replacing the three screws for the back lamp tray with stainless knurled head nobs = gotta remove or adjust to bench focus anyway... why not make it easy to do. I also rivet nut replaced the tapping for the top lamp cover the stripped holes, and sure why not to the knobs also. Next and perhaps biggest improvement I did was to the upper lamp carriage support arm. If this back plate is how you access the lamp, and pull it out 1/4" in getting the black spot to bench focus from... Why is it not easier to pull this back plate out by way of something to pull with?

In addition to high temp. greasing all glide rails, and those rear support rails... note the holes in the frame not used?
I am adding tomorrow an 8-32x1" cup point set screw to the top (greased) support rail, and a female knob on it's reverse end. Thread locked into place. If you must slide this plate out to service or focus the lamp... why is there not some means of pulling that plate out? Simple enough fix.
TBA in why the fixture was sent to me. "blowing lamps"... Could be a lack of front knob in use or not tensioned and fell off, but I don't see arcing on the bad lamp in place to indicate this. The front nut/knob was certainly missing... but it could also be a bad ballast. After all the service call... could still be a ballast. Wasn't going to turn it on before I replaced its cable feeding the fixture - three cuts and basically shot. While waiting for the new cable I did restoration and safety.
Unfortunately given they did not ask me for a full service call I do to all spots, much of the restoration work might not be paid for. On the other hand, once it's figured out for sure the problem... training and a service call for all their gear might become the norm. I brought this fixture back to factory spec. and better as the norm for what I work on. Follow spot... Needs to work and needs yearly service to maintain it so it's dependable. Stuff like a chopper or Iris... you can use it until it fails, or you can service it in using it until unknown. I keep follow spots older than 40 years old still running in factory spec. or better condition.
 

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ship

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It works. No apparent ballast issues in fixture ballast issues in “blowing up lamps” as described by the customer. Yet to examine the bad lamp installed with a blackened globe under the magnifying glass, (no arching from the lens side part of the lamp detected as indication of a loose or missing nut), but from what I saw when I opened the fixture the first time.. Bad bench focus and lack of toward lens side nut installed. So... operator error? Or in finding (a) nut in the ballast cavity, this nut was not installed properly - assuming it and not the found lamp also missing the same nut, or some other past lamp this nut in the ballast... is this found nut inside the ballast assembly. More a question of - fixture came to me without the lens side nut installed, a second lamp floating about inside the fixture, also without the same nut. Fixture came with it’s missing nut wire no longer on the lamp. Transport? Stuff got unscrewed and?

Not easy to install a dual ended lamp in this fixture well designed for a different lamp. I found it difficult after inspecting and cleaning the lamp, to install it. The gobo/Iris/chopper cover plate was mis-drilled in width of the fixture for tapped mounting holes by about 1/16" due to possibly usage fixture damage. This caused aluminum the casting tapped holes on the fixture to become stripped. I note on the gel frame assembly it’s bent - fixture dropped. I had to over size holes, and bend this plate so as to properly make the lamp housing above cover fit. I also had to do some grinding to the hole slots on the lamp vented cover to make it fit. Hmm.. Missing screws.. Stripped and holes that don’t line up - the whole fixture at some point was dropped in tweaking it. Rivet nuts installed into the casting for mounting all stripped top plate covers, and oversized and or die grinded ovaled holes for other covers. To make this work in re-assembly. (This would also blow a lamp.)

Didn’t have a new lamp in stock, but cleaned the one I found floating about inside the fixture and it worked dependably. Also bought a new lamp - amazing how cheap this lamp was. Been striking the found lamp, letting it run, dousing it and letting it cool and re-striking it all day. Was and am very disappointed that the fans don’t continue to cool the lamp when the fixture is switched off, but it is only a 575w HMI lamp, and other than 1Kw halogen spots I have dealt with are 1.2Kw HMI fixtures or higher wattage xenon and HMI that are hotter. I don’t remember if the 1Kw Altmans were fan cooled once switched off, probably not also.

Perhaps it’s ok, but I made sure none of my staff attempted a hot restrike just in case. My assistant offered up adding a second switch to the fixture so the fan works for cool down mode... Yes! Brilliant, but not our fixture, and turning off hot has not so far had a bad problem with the lamp in future strikes so far.

At one point in testing I heard a spark as I struck the lamp. My assistant across the room also heard it in knowing the sound but not aware of what I was doing in rushing over. Fixture did strike the lamp and it worked fine... but concerning. Tomorrow I’ll open up the fixture again to detect what that arc sound was. It did not repeat this in a later restriking, but given a pre-cleaned and serviced fixture... anything that arched should be easy to detect.

Take back apart the fixture tomorrow... not easy but necessary. Look to detect what we heard arch. Fix if possible. Install the new lamp and continue with testing.

It will be interesting to see if my bench focus results in the screw thread sticking out as much as the above fixture results. I was a little worried about bringing the lamp in too far and settled with a semi-hard brown/yellow edge of the hard beam. Also interesting to see what a day with choppers mostly in use did to the choppers re-surfaced and coated.

Also from the above photos’ Amazing how clean your fasteners are, as opposed to everything I saw was at best dull, if not corroded. I note a curved hook to the micro switch in use. Is this done to help with bench focus? I tried the 1/4" back lamp slide plate distance to the fixture for the concept of a black hole at the center to aim for... Na. I was better off doing a normal bench focus... but great concept were the black hole center not so large.

I also note and thanks for how the type K or E micro switch wires were trained down the support and where they went - thanks. I did that for the most part but insulated them to limited success, but success with jacketing them. They are line voltage in very thin insulation to conductor.
 

techieman33

Well-Known Member
I'm also not a fan of the fan not continuing to run. But at the same time we have never had any issues with them so we just accept that Lycian knew what they were doing when they made that decision and don't worry about it.

As far as hot restrike goes, they aren't rated for that. So I would be cautious if you attempt it. As far as I can tell that's the main difference between this version and the other version with the single ended lamp. It is rated for hot restrike. The local lighting shop has 2 of that version and we occasionally rent them when a show requires additional spotlights and they are functionally the same other than that. Unless you douse down really low then you can see the shadow of the wire in the reflector of ours.

It is always interesting to see how different fixtures look when you see one that has been on the road and outside versus one that was installed somewhere and only moves from its location once every year or two to get cleaned.

As for the curve in the switch, I'm not really sure. But I would guess that it's just to help it reach the top cover. When I was putting it back on I didn't hear it click until the cover was nearly in place, maybe 1 or 2 mm from it's installed position. I couldn't tell you if that happened at Lycian or during the few years they were at the theater before I started working there though.

I have always done a normal bench focus as well and never tried the method listed in the manual. I could see it being useful if I was trying to do it by myself and looking at the cyc 100' away. We've just always had a spotter on the stage to help give directions for any changes that needed to be made.
 

ship

Senior Team Emeritus
Premium Member
Thank you very much for your help in servicing this fixture, your notes and photos. I think I fully understand this fixture now. Took some time to figure out the large venues Strong fixtures I suddenly started servicing and preserving as per my antique lights. Was costly at first to fix and re-surface what their past service company was not doing, but it paid off in not having to replace much later after a full service call years later. This is a new company in follow spot for me. I don’t think I’ll charge them for labor in other than what was needed to fix the fixture, and what was required in labor to fix problems before I would safely test it, but will charge them in parts and upgrades needed to even get to testing the fixture. Next fixtures will be all labor and parts for work done. They asked me to figure out the self done lamp failures,... was not a fixture problem, it was a “skilled labor” problem found.

Also that this fixture was designed for the single ended version and the dual ended version in my case at least was made to work. Also the fixture I worked on was dropped at some point in a twisted fixture - stuff not aligning in fastening, but not bad enough to screw up optics. Boomerang twisted was a large conformation. I made a lot of repairs and replacements to the fixture, but in the end recommended upgrading it to the single ended MSR 575HR lamp version currently in the manual. I hate this lamp if a touring lamp used in a fixture... Tracked an entire tour of Walking with Dinosaurs moving light fixtures using this lamp and it’s fragility while in fixture to transport. On the other hand, given the current manual, easy to remove and re-install this lamp, much less bench focus from the brilliant dark spot technique. I’m sure we all have tried to bench focus a lamp in daylight... that dark spot concept should be really interesting.

I recommended that they upgrade for touring the fixture, and better than the original lamp case (Philips lamp boxes are often seriously the worst), they make a scene shop lamp traveling case for the traveling lamp. Instruct or have trained labor to install the lamp - just as I have lost one of my staff for the summer... on tour. Each time the lamp for transport should not be in the fixture.

A fixture manual on hand, and only trained people to install and bench focus.. As opposed to no indications of a bad ballast blowing up lamps... what I can see is “operator error.” Can professionalize that upgrading to a different lamp and it being removed for transport... not sure if the lighting company I'm doing this work for is ready for that concept, or even the concept of yearly serviced. AKA, get the rest of your lights in for service... before they fail.
 

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