M7 MIDI Program Change vs. Other Protocols

[Chris Chapman]

I'm firing Qlab from my Yamaha M7 using MIDI Program Change values. For the 1st time I hit the 128 cue limit with Program Change Value. (We have to split the show into Act 1 and Act 2 files now, but mic check has to be tracked very carefully to be tweaked during intermission.)

Is there a better way get the MIDI cues from the M7 to fire Qlab? Control change for instance? Or is this just a MIDI quirk I have to live with?

 

[cekren]

Assuming they're sequentially triggered cues, I would probably just set a softkey to be my "GO" button on the M7 using your MIDI command of choice and map it in Qlab's Musical MIDI control page. Add in keys for Next and Previous cues and you have a basic control interface on the console surface. If you're using the MIDI TX messages from the console's scene recall, you're probably in a bit of a bind AFAIK. I ran into a similar issue with a GLD on the Qlab Google Group

 

[MrX]

Switch the M7CL Program Change setting to "Bank". I don't know QLab but I'm sure it can handle Bank PC messages.
Using Bank mode gives you 127 * 127 program change messages.

 

[themuzicman]

First -- What are you doing that requires that many cues, and at that across two show files? That screams "largest musical ever" to me, and I've done some shows that were honestly too large for that desk. I generally run out of MIDI parameters automating Control Changes in Qlab to make the console do what I want - rarely Program Changes.

Second -- Flip the thing into Multi-Mode. It's been a few years since I used an M7, but if MIDI functionality is anything like the CL stuff, you have 2,302 possible Program Change values you can send out when in Multi Mode, versus Single mode. Just be aware if you have any other show-control that you have made very sure that they won't respond to the Program Changes once Multi-Mode is enabled -- it'll let you transmit program changes across all channels. I find it a little quicker to program than throwing the console into Bank mode. -- Judicious tracking of all show control systems is necessary if you have hit the limit and need to transmit in Multimode and have more than one thing that needs MIDI.

Assuming they're sequentially triggered cues, I would probably just set a softkey to be my "GO" button on the M7 using your MIDI command of choice and map it in Qlab's Musical MIDI control page. Add in keys for Next and Previous cues and you have a basic control interface on the console surface. If you're using the MIDI TX messages from the console's scene recall, you're probably in a bit of a bind AFAIK. I ran into a similar issue with a GLD on the Qlab Google Group

I am rarely if ever a fan of just a generic softy GO button, especially with their (apparently crazy) number of cues. My issue is that I usually run a main and a backup rig, and need to keep them in sync. In moments of intense cue firing (generally in tech when you're hopping around), a generic trigger tends to get both machines out of sync. I am always a fan of a discrete trigger - both machines stay in sync, and if one of them misses the discrete trigger, the next cue gets them back in sync. Plus in tech or put-in rehearsals you can hop around the entire show and things will track. It's especially important when you have a larger system - i.e. FOH Console, Monitor Console, and QLab -- discrete triggers from any source guarantee that all desks and playback stay in sync.

 

[Chris Chapman]

First -- What are you doing that requires that many cues, and at that across two show files? That screams "largest musical ever" to me, and I've done some shows that were honestly too large for that desk. I generally run out of MIDI parameters automating Control Changes in Qlab to make the console do what I want - rarely Program Changes.

Second -- Flip the thing into Multi-Mode. It's been a few years since I used an M7, but if MIDI functionality is anything like the CL stuff, you have 2,302 possible Program Change values you can send out when in Multi Mode, versus Single mode. Just be aware if you have any other show-control that you have made very sure that they won't respond to the Program Changes once Multi-Mode is enabled -- it'll let you transmit program changes across all channels. I find it a little quicker to program than throwing the console into Bank mode. -- Judicious tracking of all show control systems is necessary if you have hit the limit and need to transmit in Multimode and have more than one thing that needs MIDI.



I am rarely if ever a fan of just a generic softy GO button, especially with their (apparently crazy) number of cues. My issue is that I usually run a main and a backup rig, and need to keep them in sync. In moments of intense cue firing (generally in tech when you're hopping around), a generic trigger tends to get both machines out of sync. I am always a fan of a discrete trigger - both machines stay in sync, and if one of them misses the discrete trigger, the next cue gets them back in sync. Plus in tech or put-in rehearsals you can hop around the entire show and things will track. It's especially important when you have a larger system - i.e. FOH Console, Monitor Console, and QLab -- discrete triggers from any source guarantee that all desks and playback stay in sync.

The show is "Willy Wonka" and students have programmed it. It's using a pre-recorded score, with 55 tracks. Adding in sound FX goes, and paging for DCA reassignments we are at approximately 144 cues in the show. If I were programming it, it would be less. 144 cues takes me over the 128 limit on Program Change. First time I've ever run into that. We're in production week right now so I'm not about to reprogram when we open in 2 days. I'm looking at future functionality. When I programmed "Into the Woods" I was in the 90's for cues for the entire show, and that's the largest I've ever programmed. This one has a TON of sound effect cues that are eating the cue space. The Nut Room alone has 15 cues firing prerecorded voice overs of "good nut" and "bad nut". Those are all visual cues because of actors.

The 128 limit is on the Qlab side. Program Change looks like it has a hard coded limit of 128.

 

[themuzicman]

The show is "Willy Wonka" and students have programmed it. It's using a pre-recorded score, with 55 tracks. Adding in sound FX goes, and paging for DCA reassignments we are at approximately 144 cues in the show. If I were programming it, it would be less. 144 cues takes me over the 128 limit on Program Change. First time I've ever run into that. We're in production week right now so I'm not about to reprogram when we open in 2 days. I'm looking at future functionality. When I programmed "Into the Woods" I was in the 90's for cues for the entire show, and that's the largest I've ever programmed. This one has a TON of sound effect cues that are eating the cue space. The Nut Room alone has 15 cues firing prerecorded voice overs of "good nut" and "bad nut". Those are all visual cues because of actors.

The 128 limit is on the Qlab side. Program Change looks like it has a hard coded limit of 128.

128 is just the limit of MIDI program changes on a single channel. Just flip your M7's MIDI into Multi-Mode and then you can start sending Program Changes on Channel 2-16. QLab honestly doesn't care what channel it inputs and outputs on, just as long as you specify it in the cue.

In the future, really consider getting a QLab Remote and firing console scenes FROM QLab -- I'm generally not a fan of building in scenes in a console just to fire a sound effect. I'm all for a console scene change firing a sound effect if it's coincidental with the scene recall, but if you end up adding in too many SFX, tracking things that aren't Recall Safe tends to become a nightmare. Generally verb and monitor sends are really what ends up biting me unless I have an assistant just tracking changes that need to propagate to SFX only cues.

The CL has a nice workaround, where I can fire discrete triggers on my scene shifts with program changes, and then I build in a generic scene advance User Defined Key. If my main/backup slip on the generic triggers, then the next discrete trigger gets the playhead back in sync.

Anyhow, Multi-Mode will fix your problem, just make sure to change the channel when you go to capture the MIDI cue in the QLab trigger.