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Many many intel questions....

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by Minion, Feb 14, 2005.

  1. Minion

    Minion Member

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    Hey guys, I am designing lights for my high schools production of The Laramie Project.

    With designing I am fine, I know what looks I want and everything. Mostly my questions revolve around the technical part of the lighting. I have a solid knowledge of conventional fixtures, but with automation (which I will be dabbling into) I am clueless.

    Here is the system we are currently running:

    Dimming: Two EDI EX Racks, one full to capacity with 2.4kW dimmers another with about half capacity.
    Dimmer Spread
    1-30 Catwalks
    31-80 Electrics
    81-118 Floor Pockets
    119-148 House Lights

    Control:
    EDI Bijou 512

    Fixtures:
    11 ETC Source Four
    3 Altman 360Q
    6 Par 64
    1 Par 16
    3 3” Fresnel
    8 6” Fresnel
    2 8” Fresnel
    12 14” Scoops

    That is basically our rig, but now I plan on renting the following from Atmosphere Lighting Inc out of Bethesda, Maryland …

    2 Mac 2000 Profiles
    24 ETC Source Fours
    1 DF-50 Hazer

    So now I have a bunch of questions about the Mac 2ks and the DF-50, I have never worked with automation before so sorry if I am totally off with these…

    How would I wire the Mac2ks and the DF-50 with DMX to the board? Daisy Chain them then plug them directly into the second universe?

    How do I run two universes at the same time with the conventionals in one universe and the automated in another?

    Do I plug the Mac2ks and the DF-50 into the rig through the dimmers for a power source? If not where do I plug them in for a power source?

    When I program the show along with the automation how do I make the lights move in one cue? Individual use of their channels or does it involve the macros? (I have no clue what a macro is, so that might also be good to know!)

    How do I work with the firmware on the Mac2ks, do I need to work on the fixture every time I need to run the show? (They would be in an inconvenient spot to get up to them often)

    Thanks!
    -Andrew
     
  2. propmonkey

    propmonkey Well-Known Member

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    all i know is i would either daisy chain them to the 2nd universe or get a DMX splitter.

    just a comment: thats going to cost alot for that equipment...
     
  3. Minion

    Minion Member

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    Yup, I know! (About the cost)

    My director is crazy about Laramie, he is going all out. The set will contain about 20 TVs a bunch will be flat panels. I asked him about a budget, he responded, "What budget?!"
     
  4. len

    len Well-Known Member

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    All dmx runs daisy chain. So yes, a, b, c, d, etc.

    How you can connect them to the board, I can't say. Once they'e patched in, just program. The whole idea of a multi-universe board is that you don't have to wory about which universe a fixture is on.

    NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, run any dmx fixture through a dimmer pack.

    I believe the M2K needs a 220 line. Check the manual.

    The M2k requires depending 21 and 31 channels, depending on exactly which version it is. Can your board handle it? If not, look into renting a 512 channel console.


    I would also consider using a splitter WITH an amplifier in it. This will help boost the signal over long runs.
     
  5. Minion

    Minion Member

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    Yeah that’s what I thought, for a power source can I just plug it into a wall outlet?

    No clue what this means? Could you explain more?

    They are M2k Profiles, is that the exact version you were looking for? My board should be fine, it has two 512 universes.

    The board is on “one to one patching: cannot be edited.” Again it is a EDI Bijou, not a board many people are familiar with. With it being one to one once I plug the fixtures in and restart the board would it pick them up right away?
     
  6. Peter

    Peter Well-Known Member

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    WOWOW lucky you! lol normally when I hear that (ok, ya, I always hear that) it means that we have $0 not $oxo (my sad attempt an an infinity symbol)

    Where are you guys getting the $$ for this? do you know some pot of gold at the end of a rainbow that I dont know about? :)
     
  7. Minion

    Minion Member

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    Our department roughly gets 20,000 dollars per school year. That is our whole budget though. That is the standard for the schools in my county (Fairfax, VA). I think it is either the 2nd or 3rd most wealthy county in the nation. Every single school in the county made that list of the top somenumber highschools in the nation. The school board also LOVES the arts, that helps too.

    We tend to turn a profit on our shows, so we are basically in the money.

    Our director is rather thrifty with money however, so we never spend all of our budget. It just goes back to the county.

    Sorry if I am making you jealous, but you are more than welcome to move here! We need smart techs!
     
  8. propmonkey

    propmonkey Well-Known Member

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    our budget is under $8,000 for the entire year and our district doesnt really support the arts.
     
  9. Peter

    Peter Well-Known Member

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    lol, jealous, ya abit! We got a new building and new everything last year, so we are decently equiped, but that stuff replaced a 50+ year old building with 50+ year old equipment in some cases. Still, all addtional stuff has to come streight from my pocket. I dont think we have ever turned a profit on a play. We simply live in too sparsely populated an area. we get the people's families who are involved, and maybe the normal % of the surrounding towns populations who are interested in such things, but our towns populations are so small and widely spread (people would have to drive 45+ mins to come see the shows) to get anything close to a good turn out. (we normally have about 150 people max for each of the two shows)
     
  10. SteveRB

    SteveRB Member

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    *Please feel free to correct me if any information in this post is wrong, but I am sharing my experience with this equipment, which could have been different*

    You CAN NOT run Mac2ks or a DF-50 off of dimmers. Not to get into too much detail but dimmers essentially chop up the sin waves of the electrical signal sent to the fixture, which may cause damage to the electronics of the Mac2k's and DF-50s. In fact I do not believe that the DF-50s will even turn on if plugged into a dimmer. The DF-50s can be plugged into standard 120Volt outlets. The Mac2ks are designed to be run off of 220 volts but you can ask the rental house to re-tap the fixtures to run off of 120 Volts. Then you can run them off of standard 120Volt outlets, but be sure to ask for the proper adaptors, and make sure you are not overloading your circuits. You may want to ask about renting a power distribution panel.

    I would strongly recommend that you discuss any question that you have with your account manager or a technician at the rental house. I know that you may not want to but it is better then damaging their equipment and they will be the most helpful and knowledgeable since it is their equipment.
     
  11. Minion

    Minion Member

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    Yeah that is what I was worried about, damaging the lights. I am by no means afraid to ask the rental house, infact I hope the rental house will explain all of this again to me. I just want to have some sort of knowledge.

    Still looking for more information on the untouched questions!

    Thanks!
    -Andrew
     
  12. len

    len Well-Known Member

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    answered

    not sure how to patch into the board you mentioned. Never used it before. But once fixtures are patched (assigned to a universe and a starting address) you shouldn't need to worry about that again, unless your console has no memory and doesn't save that info from session to session.

    most appliances in your house operate on 110V A/C. Some things, like an electric stove, may draw 220 volts. I'm not sure what the M2k requires. When I've used them I wasn't rigging the job. But try to download the manual http://www.martin.com/service/service.asp?dofind=yes&support=Martin and read through it. If you're using the Profile II, the manual will be slightly different, but essentially the same.

    A macro is typically some pre-set group of instructions and is based in the desk, not the fixture. Movement macros usually are used when you want a semi-random movement. If you can connect a mouse or other pointer to your desk, that might help with aiming.

    Set them up once, and the settings will remain until you change them. You won't need to reset them every time they are powered on.
     
  13. RonaldBeal

    RonaldBeal Active Member

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    Fisrt, a DF-50 CAN be run from a dimmer, as long as you set the dimmer to switched, or non-dim, or do the same for the patch profile in the console. (0 and 100%, just nothing in between)
    Additionally, unless you are getting the brand new versions, most df-50's (anything made before this year) don't even have DMX in. I'm not even sure if the dmx version is available yet, since it was only recently announced.
    Powering through a dimmer allows you to control the output (better than just letting it run, or having someone constantly tending to it)
    Practically every major rock tour, and television event that uses df-50's does this. I've run df-50's on dimmers for over 10 years without problems, and have had as many as 12 df-50's at a time. DF-50's do not have magnetic or switched power supplies that can be damaged by chopped sine-wave's from traditional dimmers.
    the MAC's on the otherhand CANNOT run from the dimmers, their power supplies will indeed be damaged.
    You will need to have the MACs set to 110v (with the appropriate connector) or have a distro provided by the rental house to run 208V(my personal preference.). Make sure there is somewhere to have the distro tied in to the building power. You will need an electrician to tie the distro in.

    >How do I work with the firmware on the Mac2ks, do I need to work on the fixture every time I need to run the show? (They would be in an inconvenient spot to get up to them often)

    You shouldn't need to mess with the firmware. Once the fixtures are addressed, they should be good to go.

    >How do I run two universes at the same time with the conventionals in one universe and the automated in another?

    Two ways. first simply addres the 2 MACS past the dimmers (ie 201 and 301.) The current patch (one to one) means channel 1 controls dmx 1 on each output.
    Second completly re-patch. the Bijou has 3 patch tables, the first is the one to one, which is not modifiable. The other two are user defined and can be changed to suit your needs. Get out the manual and learn to patch. You can also download the manual from EDI's website.

    Hope this helps, and good luck
     
  14. moojoe

    moojoe Active Member

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    well i looked at the manual briefly for your board, go to the following site.
    http://www.edionline.com/bijou.htm
    then scroll down a bit, and click manual. then go to page 75. thats all about the automated fixtures. it looks like you need a Plus board to work them though.
    hope that helps.

    lucky you and your unlimited budget.
     
  15. jonhirsh

    jonhirsh Active Member

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    Location:
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    The board you use may not be able to support a second universe if it does then on the back it would have more then one dmx out put for example labeld universe A Dmx512 universe B Dmx 1024 etc.....
    if it doesnt have this then you only have one universe of 512 chanels of dmx but this limits the amount of dimmers or in your case intels you can run if you do have many universes then when you patch your fixtures the ones that are pluged in on universe 2 or B you just start at 513 and go to 1025 then the third would be 1026 to 1538 and so on.


    Unless the moving lights your using are mac 250's (i thnk these are the only ones that use 110 ) you will require a power tap which means you need to have a power disconnect to tap into which is three phase most proffesional theatres have this but ontop of renting your lights you now need power distrbution so you will need this from your rental house. or the lights will simply not be able to be powerd up not harmed in anyway just not powerd up Thiis can cost as much as your light rental.

    to make the lights move you have to set their desttination by choising where you want it to go then by using the faders or by typing in the levels that coordinate with that particular location. then you first record a cue withh the light in postion with the shuters closed then with the shutters open so it gets to the spot with out you seeing it move.


    once you program them and hang them they will stay powerd on but will kill the bulb inside ever time you power down the board but the dmx settings will stay and when you turn the board on it will strike the bulb.



    if your board is not ment for intels i sugest either you rent a second smaller board that is or rethink the intells they take up a huge amount of space on your board and are hard and tiime consumeing to work with for ever intel you rent expect to spend 3 hours on it or more if you have never used one before. they are not eassy but an expericanced programer can do it in minutes a newbie which i am one of and i will tell you straight if your show does not find it essential but is useing it for the "cool" value you are wasteing your time and budget. i have done the laramie project trust me that show is written for a black box space its not neccesary but if you must have it then do your self a favor if you think you can do the rig in a day then give your self an extra day if your using intels if you think you could do it in two days give an extra two days etc.... not to discourage any one but its not eassy and if your new to it there is allot to trouble shoot

    If you need any help feel free to call

    Jon Hirsh
    black horse productions
    416 371 2216
     
  16. Minion

    Minion Member

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    The show has been blocked with lots of acting in the house, involving lots of specials or (dare I say it) followspots. Basically the MACs would be hanging off our first electric just enough to hit anywhere in our house. I could use conventionals for everything, but I have always wanted to work with Intels and I see this as a perfect oppurtunity. Plus if they do work out great and my director falls in love with them we might buy some.

    I love a challenge and I have to time to tackle one. :D

    Here is a horrible panorama of our theatre just so you know what I am talking about with our house and such.
    [​IMG]
     
  17. Radman

    Radman Well-Known Member

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    So is your board not the plus model? I might suggest renting a board then, since your budget allows it. The High End Hog 1000 would probably be nice, but at $400 a week, it might be too expensive. The ETC Express 125 is half the price, but would likely be a bigger hassle to work setup. Those are the prices from Atmosphere, by the way.
     
  18. Minion

    Minion Member

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    Well we do have a budget, it is just higher than what we can do for other shows that we put on. So basically everything I have mentioned is pushing it , but anything more will start to be out of the question. Our board is not the plus model, but running Intels on the regular Bijou should be fine. It probably will be a pain not having the extra controls but I think I will be able to make out alright.

    What lenght of a cable run starts to get to the point that I would need to get a DMX Amplifier?
     
  19. Radman

    Radman Well-Known Member

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    Running intels from a conv. board can be very difficult, because the arcs and profiles involved are often too much to deal with. Any circles would mean a lot of cues, and the parameters have to be able to be controlled by the values not the percentages. Lots of channels like lamp control. Plus the pan and tilt are 16 bit on the MAC2kP, and I think the Bijou only supports 8 bit. Sorry to discourage you...

    600' before amp is needed.
     
  20. jonhirsh

    jonhirsh Active Member

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    Hey as i was saying it is time consuming i just did tick tick boom and we did it on a express 24/48 and oh my god what a nightmare, its took 4 hours to program a 1 hour job. let me say this if you are doing the intels rent a fat frog there cheep but they are awsome and will save you 2 hours on programing. if you cant afford the board dont do it . my rule when i am decideing weither to work on a show is do they have the right gear in the rider if they dont i pass.

    Jon Hirsh
     

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