Mic feedback in front of speaker

Brenden Friedel

Active Member
So for my upcoming production, we are building a thrust stage to our existing proscenium. Heres my problem we have two line array stacks directly above where the thrust is going to be. Any tips on how to not get feedback from the stack? (Equipment being used Speakers: 4 JBL VRX932LA-1 on each line array, Subwoofers 2 JBL VRX915S on each line array. Center cluster is an unknown brand that the school installed when it was first built but I plan to only use it for sound effects. and the mixer is a Yamaha ls9-32.
 
My two cents without knowing anything other than what you said above --
* Ring the house and use a PEQ on those line arrays to make sure you have dealt with the naturally occurring feedback frequencies.
* Then if you have the equipment I suggest adding some side fills on the sides of the thrust if possible. The more speakers you have the lower the volume you can run them at and still allow the audience to hear the vocals clearly. Keeping the volume low should help with feedback.
 
My two cents without knowing anything other than what you said above --
* Ring the house and use a PEQ on those line arrays to make sure you have dealt with the naturally occurring feedback frequencies.
* Then if you have the equipment I suggest adding some side fills on the sides of the thrust if possible. The more speakers you have the lower the volume you can run them at and still allow the audience to hear the vocals clearly. Keeping the volume low should help with feedback.
Ring the house? also, some more info is sound system is run by cat 5 using a Dante network and Creston system. From what I know I do not have control of the speaker itself only a main fader that sends to just those
 
Gain things up until you get feedback, cut that frequency and keep gaining until it happens again. Repeat until satisfied or until you can't anymore or it sounds too weird and then back that off a bit. Ringing out the system.
 
Is this a direct announcer/singer or are you trying to mic at a distance? If it's at a distance, then I can't add much to the above.
If it is a singer/announcer, then you could always try the trick used back in the 70's by the Grateful Dead. (Actually, kind of interesting.)
The band decided they wanted all their instruments and PA behind them ("Wall of Sound" tour.) Their soundman paired microphones together with the mic heads 66mm apart, then wired them out of phase and told the band members to sing only to one mic. It worked! Kind of funky looking, but then again, ;)
 
When I was learning the LS-9 32, I found a lot of great video resources on how to do some of these procedures if you need them. Do a google search and I'm sure you will find what you need.

To add to above, I have found that it helps to set the HPF and LPF (high and low pass filters) for each mic to the frequencies that the mic actually needs to pick up. I have found that feedback tends to build from the lower fundamental, and HPF can help when properly keyed in, especially if you already did the ringing out of your system.

The LS9 also has the ability to add a PEQ for each channel, so you might do the same ringing out for a particularly problematic mic, without affecting everything else.

I'll second the notion of avoiding distance or group mics. That will be hard forward if your array.
 
Without knowing any specifics of the system, I would try to get as much discrete control over the rig as you possibly can and not discount the Center Cluster for just SFX. Do you have any Front Fills? Can you get Front Fills? Just having a single "Master' send to a system really is an unfortunate position to be in. You can EQ all day and all night, but at the end of the day, this entire thing is one big speaker positioning problem and EQ will only cover up problems.

I'm going to assume this is a musical, or music performance. In those cases, I lean on my Center Cluster the heaviest -- this is what is punching my vocals through to the bulk of the theater (if it was designed correctly). It also images the most correctly to the majority of the stage (again, if designed correctly). The L/R pushes the majority of my band, and does some light vocal fill-in. Then from there I have Front-Fills that are reinforcing the Center Cluster, because typically the way physics works, sound from the performer will get to the front row before sound from my cluster so I need speakers even closer, plus in a thrust I can aim my bottom CC box off the thrust, and then fill in around the thrust with FF and Side-Fill.

For reference, in a moderate sizes thrust I typically design an "exploded" center cluster, typically some small format line-array that does the center section of the theater, and then some point-source boxes left and right of this cluster, filling in the L/R sections - but all getting the same signal as the array. This all pushes my vocals out, and then the Front Fill system compliments the Center Cluster system.

If you have no access to other speakers than this L/C/R I would look at what sort of spill you're getting from the VRX onstage, and see if either removing the bottom box and using it in a more advantageous position or just unplugging it helps clean the stage up a bit.

The bigger issue aside from feedback is really coherence. With your speakers behind the performer, the sound from the speakers will always arrive at the destination before the speakers which makes your coherence all wonky. Your only three options are 1. to accept this, or to 2. make your PA a lot louder than the source material or 3. add in a thousand speakers (see this on Natasha Pierre if you want to know what happens when your entire theater is suddenly a stage).

The LS9 also has the ability to add a PEQ for each channel, so you might do the same ringing out for a particularly problematic mic, without affecting everything else.

On the flipside, if you notice you're notching the same frequencies out of every mic, you want to un-do that from every channel and do that on a mix, assuming mixes are set up in a coherent fashion to make this possible. Generally my musical theater console structure has a variety of Vox mixes (Vox-M Principal, Vox-F Principal, Vox-M Ens, Vox-F, Ens, or if I'm lucky to have a desk with auxes for days, I'll double that number and have "heads" and "ears" auxes on top, for ear rig mics and mics in hair.
 
Without knowing any specifics of the system, I would try to get as much discrete control over the rig as you possibly can and not discount the Center Cluster for just SFX. Do you have any Front Fills? Can you get Front Fills? Just having a single "Master' send to a system really is an unfortunate position to be in. You can EQ all day and all night, but at the end of the day, this entire thing is one big speaker positioning problem and EQ will only cover up problems.

I'm going to assume this is a musical, or music performance. In those cases, I lean on my Center Cluster the heaviest -- this is what is punching my vocals through to the bulk of the theater (if it was designed correctly). It also images the most correctly to the majority of the stage (again, if designed correctly). The L/R pushes the majority of my band, and does some light vocal fill-in. Then from there I have Front-Fills that are reinforcing the Center Cluster, because typically the way physics works, sound from the performer will get to the front row before sound from my cluster so I need speakers even closer, plus in a thrust I can aim my bottom CC box off the thrust, and then fill in around the thrust with FF and Side-Fill.

For reference, in a moderate sizes thrust I typically design an "exploded" center cluster, typically some small format line-array that does the center section of the theater, and then some point-source boxes left and right of this cluster, filling in the L/R sections - but all getting the same signal as the array. This all pushes my vocals out, and then the Front Fill system compliments the Center Cluster system.

If you have no access to other speakers than this L/C/R I would look at what sort of spill you're getting from the VRX onstage, and see if either removing the bottom box and using it in a more advantageous position or just unplugging it helps clean the stage up a bit.

The bigger issue aside from feedback is really coherence. With your speakers behind the performer, the sound from the speakers will always arrive at the destination before the speakers which makes your coherence all wonky. Your only three options are 1. to accept this, or to 2. make your PA a lot louder than the source material or 3. add in a thousand speakers (see this on Natasha Pierre if you want to know what happens when your entire theater is suddenly a stage).



On the flipside, if you notice you're notching the same frequencies out of every mic, you want to un-do that from every channel and do that on a mix, assuming mixes are set up in a coherent fashion to make this possible. Generally my musical theater console structure has a variety of Vox mixes (Vox-M Principal, Vox-F Principal, Vox-M Ens, Vox-F, Ens, or if I'm lucky to have a desk with auxes for days, I'll double that number and have "heads" and "ears" auxes on top, for ear rig mics and mics in hair.
So what we have right now set up is it to be a center cluster/ downfill we had a church come in and rent our space and they installed brand new speakers and subs and we rarely use are center cluster because it rarely makes a difference and the way it was designed they are almost to a 50° angle from the proscenium causing them to feedback no matter waht
 
Is this a direct announcer/singer or are you trying to mic at a distance? If it's at a distance, then I can't add much to the above.
If it is a singer/announcer, then you could always try the trick used back in the 70's by the Grateful Dead. (Actually, kind of interesting.)
The band decided they wanted all their instruments and PA behind them ("Wall of Sound" tour.) Their soundman paired microphones together with the mic heads 66mm apart, then wired them out of phase and told the band members to sing only to one mic. It worked! Kind of funky looking, but then again, ;)
It’s going to be a fair amount of actors with most likly headsets or hair mics
 
So what we have right now set up is it to be a center cluster/ downfill we had a church come in and rent our space and they installed brand new speakers and subs and we rarely use are center cluster because it rarely makes a difference and the way it was designed they are almost to a 50° angle from the proscenium causing them to feedback no matter waht

I'd try to find more info on the center cluster and see how you can make it work to your advantage, rather than against you.
 
Is this a direct announcer/singer or are you trying to mic at a distance? If it's at a distance, then I can't add much to the above.
If it is a singer/announcer, then you could always try the trick used back in the 70's by the Grateful Dead. (Actually, kind of interesting.)
The band decided they wanted all their instruments and PA behind them ("Wall of Sound" tour.) Their soundman paired microphones together with the mic heads 66mm apart, then wired them out of phase and told the band members to sing only to one mic. It worked! Kind of funky looking, but then again, ;)
@JD ; I've done something very similar to this with the mic on a Beyer DT108 or DT109 headset when being used in CLOSE proximity with an active, load-level, telco style lighting patch panel. By inverting a replacement mic element, wiring it in series and gluing it on the rear side of the Beyer's mic mount, you had this bizarre Rube Goldberg / MacGiver looking assemblage in front of your lips but it greatly reduced magnetically induced / coupled hum during those moments when you had to key your ClearCom mic on while actively re-patching mid performance. Crude and ugly, but for off-camera applications it became a quick and effective solution.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
 
It’s going to be a fair amount of actors with most likly headsets or hair mics
If that's the case, things should work out. Feedback (besides EQ) is basic math, a ratio of how close the mic is to the source as compared to how close the mic is to the speakers, and their reflections. In the case of a headworn mic, those numbers are very favorable, as long as you have performers with reasonable strength in their voices.
 
If that's the case, things should work out. Feedback (besides EQ) is basic math, a ratio of how close the mic is to the source as compared to how close the mic is to the speakers, and their reflections. In the case of a headworn mic, those numbers are very favorable, as long as you have performers with reasonable strength in their voices.
Its a high school
 
I'd try to find more info on the center cluster and see how you can make it work to your advantage, rather than against you.
so from what ive seen when i went on the cat walk are old system consisted of 3 sub boxes (unknown brand) and two tweeters on each array one was a mid and the other being high
 
Its a high school
Ha! Well, high schools sure have progressed quite a bit since the 1960's when I went! Back then, they would just stick an EV 664 on a mic stand in front of the stage!
Totally useless, but it was the "thought that counts", right?
 
Ha! Well, high schools sure have progressed quite a bit since the 1960's when I went! Back then, they would just stick an EV 664 on a mic stand in front of the stage!
Totally useless, but it was the "thought that counts", right?
Right better than no mics at all. I'm playing with it tomorrow and ill see whats good and whats not
 
Its a high school
@Brenden Friedel With my tongue stuck firmly in my cheek:
"So what are you saying Brenden, where's their spirited exuberance of youth?"
[At the opposite end of the 'go get 'em' psychology scale] If they're already too old for that line then:
"Surely all of you mature young adults can project LOUDER than that!"
If they haven't posted already, I'll bet many of our teachers here will proffer their advice in your direction.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
Ha! Well, high schools sure have progressed quite a bit since the 1960's when I went! Back then, they would just stick an EV 664 on a mic stand in front of the stage!
Totally useless, but it was the "thought that counts", right?
@JD And, if you were lucky, they'd even connect a cord to it, right?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
 
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I have to assume if someone installed a Crestron unit as DSP in a high school, they did it correctly, and most of the work has been done for you.

As a back-up plan, you might contact the installer if that system for help.
 
LS9/32 you say.

Use the stereo master for L/R music + sfx
Setup all the wl mics to run LCR and tune them all to Center.

Then as you run the tests, try perhaps to dial the choir vocals a bit into the L/R as well as the C (perhaps with a bit panning)
Been doing the job for me on several musicals.

If the entire LCR setup is locked in the controller.... ring out and use some time on soundcheck on each (principal) singer.
 

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