Micing a grand piano
- Thread starterJon Majors
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Jon Majors
Active Member
I'm familiar with the helpinstill. Just wasn't sure it if was standard. I've also had better coverage with a couple of 57s. Any idea what pop orchestras use, if anything?
Jay Ashworth
Well-Known Member
My boss has a pair of high end short-stick small-diaphragm condensors; we use drum-kit clips to attach them to the harp, pointing down at the two ends of the strings. Neumann I-84s
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It seems to me that these days some pop orchestras and similar groups use digital keyboards, possibly hidden in the carcass of a piano for aesthetic reasons. That of course is not a universal approach--but it does make "micing" very, very simple and straightforward. For more classical music, particularly as a feature instrument (a piano concerto, say) or in a small group, a proper acoustic piano is still a lot better than a digital one, despite the latter having improved tremendously over the years. (Then again, in a lot of classical music settings, there is no need for amplification--and micing for recording, broadcast, or streaming might be as simple as a single stereo pair for the whole ensemble.)
Jay Ashworth
Well-Known Member
A typo.
How to mic a piano is a subject for several dissertations.
First figure out what style(s) of music are involved. Classical, Classical pop's, Big Band, Jazz, or any of many post 1950's or so styles of popular music. Each may have different needs for micing.
Also is this for recording or reinforcement?
For most classical or near classical styles in "reasonable" acoustics I'd expect no micing for reinforcement and some sort of distant micing for broadcast/recording.
While I don't have first hand expeirnce I'd suggest leaving the C-Ducers & Heppenstills for modern styles of music only.
I've had 1st hand experience using:
PZM's tapped to the lid for CCM.
RE-20's or Beta 58's in the crook on short stick for light reinforcement or slight presence in classical recordings.
DPA 4099's or AKS 414's inside for CCM/Pop.
Distant SM27's or DPA Omni's for classical with or with out choir or orchestra.
Hope this helps.
Philip
Piano pickups, like the C-ducer, are OK when the primary consideration is gain before feedback for a rock concert. Otherwise, no, just no.
Almost any smooth, flat, condenser mic can do the job. Leave the 57s in the drawer, along with any other mic with tailoring for voice. The choice between small or large diaphragm basically boils down to whether you need the warmth of the lowest fundamentals, or not. Books could be written on piano mic placement.
For classical and jazz, I prefer to keep the mics away from the hammers. In the crook, with the lid on the short stick usually sounds very natural.
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themuzicman
Well-Known Member
My usual go-to are 2x DPA 4099 with the PC4099 magnetic piano mounts. Works best when the Piano is a little open, but also works well closed. The Earthworks PM40 is a close second but they are kind of finnicky and fragile but sound great when they work. When I'm on a budget it's 2x AKG C414's. I try to avoid taping PCC's to the lids of Pianos but that's my super duper budget option. I throw a little museum putty under any mic I tape to the lid just because the worst sound you can get is that of a mic falling into the piano during a show.
Our budget is not huge, but my long time set up that has worked very well for our Steinway series D is a Barcus Berry pick up and an AMT M40 piano mic. Use a Radial Piezo DI instead of the rubbish DI Barcus Berry wants to include with their pickup. You can buy the pick up separate from the DI.
If I was starting new and had the budget, I would go with a pair of DPA mics with the magnet mounts, and still likely the Barcus Berry if I needed to worry about monitor feeds. The Earthworks piano mic system is also nice.
I tried a Helplinstill before my regular set up. Set up was cumbersome and I could not get a nice balanced sound.
~Dave
If I was starting new and had the budget, I would go with a pair of DPA mics with the magnet mounts, and still likely the Barcus Berry if I needed to worry about monitor feeds. The Earthworks piano mic system is also nice.
I tried a Helplinstill before my regular set up. Set up was cumbersome and I could not get a nice balanced sound.
~Dave
Jon Majors
Active Member
Pops? If the artist doesn't need a wedge mix and any amplified combo instruments are sufficiently not aimed at the piano... my choice would be Schoeps, DPA or Earthworks with their respective piano mounting systesm. The Helpinstil pickups are fiddly and until you get them set up properly are a source of frustration. Once you figure them out, they're magic for situations that simply won't work any other way. The Barcus-Berry piano transducer also requires experimentation, and use the B-B double stick tape. Orientation of the transducer to the wood grain direction of the soundboard has an audible effect. Agree that the B-B "di" isn't especially great; I've had better luck with Countryman FET85, and the Radial @DaveySimps mentions is another good match.
If I'm recording and have the channels, a mic underneath the sound board is really nice to blend in. Not as helpful in live though.
For super cheap isolation, and this will sound stupid but I've found it works, a 57 gently laid into one of the holes on the frame inside the piano and resting on the soundboard will work really well. You have to play with placement to get range, but in a pinch it works and tends to isolate better. And I think it sounded better than a BB on its own.
Between the two, I'd go with the PZM/PCC. I use a BB at my church hustle and it never fails to sound mid-heavy and dull. The PZMs are great for pulling out more highs, but will inevitably amplify your drummer if the lid is open. For some reason those jazz people keep parking the drummer right next to the piano! My guess is a long time ago a drummer was trying to date a pianist and the rest is history.
For super cheap isolation, and this will sound stupid but I've found it works, a 57 gently laid into one of the holes on the frame inside the piano and resting on the soundboard will work really well. You have to play with placement to get range, but in a pinch it works and tends to isolate better. And I think it sounded better than a BB on its own.
In reality, it has a lot more to do with the drummer, the bassist, and the pianist forming the rhythm section of a jazz ensemble. If they aren't in sync with each other, everything falls apart (or, at the least, sounds amateurish in the worst possible sense of the word). The dating theory is more fun, though.
It's a speed of sound thing. If the player is reacting to what is heard, how long it takes for the sound to travel from source to listener becomes a big deal. The eighth note pulse comes from the high hats, typically, so bass players tended to be on that side of the drum kit.
For me it's a proximity of acoustics. I like to hear the kick when playing rock/jazz and it's more of a "feel" rather than a "hear". I've played with wedges and IEM's and it's easier for me to feel like it's in the pocket with wedges. The keyboards/guitars provide the tonal info, but the drummer creates the temporal info. I don't generally care what the vocalists are doing and like IEM's because I can turn them off so it's a tradeoff 
MRW Lights
Well-Known Member
Am I the only one that mics a piano with a mid-side rig? Either the Schoeps or Neumann variety preferably? Live, but especially recorded on Grands that's my go to for anything more than closed lid.
