Moving Head Fixtures

hamlett22

Member
HI

We have a small-ish 400 seat theatre space. I want to purchase and install 4 moving head lighting instruments.

My main concern is noise output of the luminaries.

Distance from hang position to audience level- 26 feet.

So my question- What are the highest quality, lowest noise output moving head lighting instruments out there?

I rented a couple of Martin 800s last year and found them to be far too noisy.

Usage needs- from a straight play with quiet intimate scenes to musicals.
General wash and pattern play. I won't make my own gobos but would purchase as needed.

Can or do LEDs in a moving head provide that natural feel that traditional tungsten-halogen lamps do? To LED or not to LED.

Any input is appreciated.

Chad
 
In the fixtures I am familiar with, there is usually a trade off between noise and function. ( I have not had the chance to explore LED movers as yet )

The ETC revolution is a very quiet fixture. It has drawbacks like only three gobos, and a color scroller instead of CMY mixing, but the only fan is in the scroller. ( the shutter module can be noisy )

Have you considered something like a S4 with scroller ( or LED), a right arm, and an iris? This is the quietest combo I have seen. No gobo, but it is quiet and relatively inexpensive.
 
There are certainly LED movers that are bright enough for a small space (assuming this position isn't actually 100' away from your stage), but anyone would need to know more before making recommendations.
What features are you looking for? What kind of control do you have?

For me, an LED fixture with framing shutters and low/no fan noise would be great for a small theater, but that's assuming I have an Eos :)
Fixtures that come to mind for my ideal mover would be the ROBE DLS, and maybe the HES Solaspot Pro. One has framing shutters, the other doesn't.
 
My goto is VL1000/1100. The 1100's are considerably quieter than the 1000's but are still likely too loud for a really small space. Not exactly small either. I think the LED movers like the Solaspot are great for effects and sometimes as specials but I've not been able to get the color close enough to conventional for straight plays. Planning to play with this more when I have time in the spring.

You might also be able to build hush boxes that will take care of enough of the noise to make something workable. Just make sure you have good ventilation.
 
We have a very similar sized theater, and have been very happy with the VL770's. They don't seem too noisy, and the fan noise they do have nobody has ever complained. Our projectors seem to be louder than the lights. If they are fired up before the audience comes in, it is just background noise that they don't really notice, kinda like the 60cycle hum we all tune out in the US.
 
HI

We have a small-ish 400 seat theatre space. I want to purchase and install 4 moving head lighting instruments.

My main concern is noise output of the luminaries.

Usage needs- from a straight play with quiet intimate scenes to musicals.
General wash and pattern play. I won't make my own gobos but would purchase as needed.


Chad

I guess my question is why do you want to purchase moving head fixtures? If you are planning to use them as a learning tool for training students for instance, then absolutely, this purchase would make sense. If not, musicals and quiet straight plays seem a very bad use for them in my opinion. It's like buying a jet to cross a stream when a canoe would do. I have found that in straight plays or theatre productions, moving lights (without a defined purpose that specifically calls into function their need to move) are a bad choice that makes for lazy designers. "I need a special over there. Oh, I'll just spin the moving light around." Instead of choosing the "right" color or "right" pattern, or right beam angle to shoot from, the designer tends to compromise and just pick one that is readily available in the moving light they have hung.

Most directors will hear or complain about the fan noise during the quieter shows. Some shows on Broadway have had moving lights in the plot only because the producer expected to see them. Anne Militello once told of how she was forced to hang and spec. an entire bank of FOH moving lights that she never once turned on for a Sam Sheppard opening on Broadway, because the producer said to her, "This is Broadway. We need to have those." (I'm paraphrasing). So she hung them so they could be seen and it looked impressive to the audience, but didn't actually turn them on as she had no use for them in her design.

Just my two cents. But then, I'm an old school purist. Moving lights have their uses and place. Theatre is debatable in my opinion.
 
I would recommend any of the High End fixtures if you are specifically looking for low noise. Although old now, if you want a truly silent fixture you could pick up Studio Spot 575CMY's which, other than having pretty noisy color mixing, are silent as they have no fans.
 
Regardless of the application, the first question is always "what do you need to do?" Choose the tool to do the job. Don't buy the tool and look for a job to use it on.
 
I'm an old school purist. Moving lights have their uses and place. Theatre is debatable in my opinion.

I would say your views are well out of date then. There may have been a time when movers were more basic and what you've described would make sense. But modern day movers have optics which are as good if not better than the conventional equivalents; but this is combined with the ability to produce any colour (using CMY mixing), occupy several different focusses in the same show, and produce a wide variety of creative effects.

Time is money. Theatres don't like being in rehearsal, they like being in show, because shows sell tickets and rehearsals don't. Movers can offer drastic time savings because they can easily be focussed whilst the stage is use, different colours can be experimented with across 30 lanterns on a single button press. It would take at least an hour using gel frames and access equipment, and A/B'ing them all at once is practically impossible. And what if you knock a conventional? You have to back and refocus. Knock a mover, and it will still go and find it's position as it did before.

Truck space is money. If you can get one mover to occupy 3 position focusses with 3 different colours, you could cut 9 conventionals. Think of what that is saving in terms of meat racks full of lanterns, dimmer racks, cable trunks, etc.

Labour is money. Techs focussing lights need to be paid. Movers being focussed by the programmer do not. Constantly running up and down a ladder / scope / etc introduces fatigue which can then present safety issues, planning time for more crew, etc etc. Movers being done at the programmers leisure do not have this issue.

As you can see, there are many financial perks to using movers before you consider the creative possibilities. They are a greater financial outlay to begin with but offer many avenues to reduce time, workload and ultimately cash.

I would never advocate a theatre going completely one way or the other. Conventionals still have plenty of purpose and I use them all the time. But to even say that the value of movers in theatre is "debatable" is not singing in tune with the realistic needs of the modern theatre at all. They're an important piece of kit that theatres should definitely embrace.

My main doubt in this particular scenario, mind, is that 4 is just not a worthwhile purchase IMO. You can't do enough with 4 movers to make them a worthwhile addition. I would say you would need to double or triple that before a designer can really incorporate them usefully. If you want 4 in use you should at least buy 5 - it's not unfair to expect to have one mover on the bench all the time. But more urgently some suggestion of what the OP wants to do with the movers is really needed. There are different sorts of movers, and no realistic recommendation can be made without that information. I mean recommending spots is fine but what if they want framing shutters? Then you will want a profile. But if it's just for colour wash, you'll want neither a spot or a profile, but a wash. Do you want Tungsten or Arc source? What kind of lumens count? CMY mixing (for me - it's essential in theatre)? Zoom? Iris? Frost? It goes on. There are a wide range of fixtures out there and not nearly all of them will do the job you are looking to fill. As Len said, don't try to buy something to later find a job for it.
 
I agree with you to a point de27192, I agree to the point of professional theater vs community/educational. Movers in Pro theater are a great asset. However 90% of non pro theaters don't have the resources or the expertise to use movers effectively, and those that do tend to stay away from movers for the point of added cost. (The reason why they have the experienced techs is because they can afford to pay them, adding another cost would limit the amount of good techs that they have access to). So yes movers in theater is great but in certain situations.
 
I agree with you to a point de27192, I agree to the point of professional theater vs community/educational. Movers in Pro theater are a great asset. However 90% of non pro theaters don't have the resources or the expertise to use movers effectively, and those that do tend to stay away from movers for the point of added cost. (The reason why they have the experienced techs is because they can afford to pay them, adding another cost would limit the amount of good techs that they have access to). So yes movers in theater is great but in certain situations.

I agree... I usually try to persuade lower-end theatres NOT to buy movers.... they can be expensive to maintain, and as I pointed out above, I do think you need to buy a reasonable quantity to be able to use them effectively. 3 or 4 at a time is simply not enough. And the kind of movers that are useful in theatre are not the ones that you find going at the more reasonable-price end of the market. Many times I have had to explain to people why it is that those VL1100s you see in proper theatres cost more than an entire bar of the movers you see in nightclubs.

What I was opposing was the quote that Theatre - in general - is a "debatable" application for movers. It would be a very short debate.
 
Just my two cents. But then, I'm an old school purist. Moving lights have their uses and place. Theatre is debatable in my opinion.

While I agree with the sentiment that you don't want to use a jackhammer when all you need is a chisel, the notion that you're still not choosing the "right" light for the "right" purpose from the "right" angle with the "right" color is pretentious.

I still take very careful consideration into where I put my movers in a plot so that I can hit all of the angles I want to with them. I go for movers with CMY, so I can choose the "right" color, even if it's on-the-fly instead of from a swatch book. In this regard, movers (and LED's for that matter) give the designer much more control over the color they want than you'd ever get out of a swatch book.

As @de27192 pointed out, time is money. Nobody in the audience cares how much time you spent looking for "the right color". They'll appreciate it when they see it, but if you did with gel or a mover or an LED, they don't care.

An example is when I light a production of Nutcracker Ballet each year. Load-in begins on a Saturday, focus on Sunday and dance floor goes down immediately after. Monday is a spacing rehearsal. Tuesday the movers and rental equipment show up and are hung. Rehearsal immediately after. Dress rehearsals the next two nights and then 5 shows in 3 days.

After the dance floor is down on Sunday, I can't get up in a scissor lift to refocus specials. If I want to change anything with my conventionals, it's bounce focusing. Since it's dance with minimal scenery/props, I cover the scenery with conventionals and save my movers for all the specials on dancers. Then when the director wants to change choreography or move anything around, I can quickly accommodate via my movers without bringing rehearsal to a full-stop at a time when neither myself nor the dancers can afford to not be moving the rehearsal forward. Also at a time when there's minimal time available outside of rehearsals to change the lighting.

My first two years lighting that show with movers, you wouldn't have even been able to tell from the audience that I had used movers. It wasn't until year 3 when I started tastefully integrating movement into the design, and choosing the "right" movement of movers is even more important than choosing the "right" color. Choose a blue with a little too much green in it and the audience for the most part will recognize it looks off but be unable to articulate why. Choose to move the movers at the wrong time, wrong speed, or for the wrong effect and you can kill a dramatic moment in no time.

Using movers for theater has its place, both from an artistic perspective and from a business perspective. Doesn't mean movers are the right tool for everything, but they're not necessarily the wrong tool either. As much as the old guard is determined not to see their art form degrade, they consequently restrict it from further developing.
 
MNicolai,

If every designer did what you did, and put in the time and consideration beforehand, then I would agree with you. But I've seen them used far too often as 'catch -alls' by lazy designers. Again, I have no problem with Moving lights. I love what they can do. I simply have RARELY seen a NEED for them in small theatre. Can they be used- sure. The question I still challenge is SHOULD they be used. And while I get the whole "time/cost" benefit, I can only agree with that if the design doesn't suffer artistically as a result.

Great point made on the issues with Dance floors and tweaking focus. It does certainly beat the old bounce-focus practice and that illustrates one area they definitely make an improvement at.
 
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If every designer did what you did, and put in the time and consideration beforehand, then I would agree with you. But I've seen them used far too often as 'catch -alls' by lazy designers. Again, I have no problem with Moving lights. I love what they can do. I simply have RARELY seen a NEED for them in small theatre. Can they be used- sure. The question I still challenge is SHOULD they be used. And while I get the whole "time/cost" benefit, I can only agree with that if the design doesn't suffer artistically as a result.

So what you are saying is that it is the house's responsibility to not buy movers, in case lazy LDs want to use them for things which would be better done properly with conventionals?

What about when they get incoming LDs who AREN'T lazy? Do they just have to go without movers because the lazy ones can't be trusted?
 
Dude, relax. DELO72 isn't against moving lights, he has an opinion on their usage. That is what the forum is about.

Breathe, remember yoga.
 
I agree... I usually try to persuade lower-end theatres NOT to buy movers.... they can be expensive to maintain, and as I pointed out above, I do think you need to buy a reasonable quantity to be able to use them effectively. 3 or 4 at a time is simply not enough. And the kind of movers that are useful in theatre are not the ones that you find going at the more reasonable-price end of the market. Many times I have had to explain to people why it is that those VL1100s you see in proper theatres cost more than an entire bar of the movers you see in nightclubs.

What I was opposing was the quote that Theatre - in general - is a "debatable" application for movers. It would be a very short debate.

I disagree with a couple of your points. Expense, and number needed to make a difference.

For the expense side. We purchased two ETC Revolutions about 6 years ago. Once we got the initial bugs worked out , we have had few problems. We did send in the shutter modules for service ( but they were easily removed for service) and had one fixture that had to go back to ETC for repair a year ago. My memory is that was around three to four hundred for the repair. Last year we purchased another. ( we also have a couple of apollo rt arms with a S4, Scroller, and iris )

As to the number - it depends on what you are trying to do. We use them more for re-focusable specials that the audience will not realize are moving much more than for movement the audience sees. With one light you can do some useful things. With two more - etc. Indeed I would argue that if you are trying to train designers, it is better to start with a few movers in the rig so that they have to think about the basic design first, then trying to do it all with movers.

Now if you want to have the look of discharge lamps cutting through your stage wash , or you want to use your movers for area lights, three fixtures is not enough. But if you want to use them as specials, or a gobo wash, or a boost for some area - even one good mover can be a godsend.
 
Dude, relax. DELO72 isn't against moving lights, he has an opinion on their usage. That is what the forum is about.

Breathe, remember yoga.

Bwahahahaha. Too funny. Thank you Pete. Yes, I'm an old school purist. But I love me some Moving lights. It just depends on the application. Speaking of Moving lights, did you folks see the new ROBE BMFL Spot video? It's pretty awesome. So is the lamp that is inside... :)
 
Sorry my point was only that lazy LDs will be lazy LDs whatever tools you give them. You can't rid the world of lazy LDs by taking all the movers away.

If you have a good LD, the fixtures will be in the right position long before it comes to dialling one up and moving it around.

If you like movers in theatre after all, there is nothing to answer for. It's only that your first message said you didn't think movers were good for theatre that I couldn't understand.
 

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