Moving Light Recommendations

[Jeff Lelko]

Hi All,

As the title suggests, I'm looking for some input on moving lights. For starters, the units must be CMY mixing and no less that 575w discharge. Being able to operate on 120v is also a must. Gobos and other effects would be nice, but not necessary (and likely out of my budget). My budget is ideally south of $1K/fixture, so obviously anything I get would be used. High End Studio Beams, Studio Color 575s, and Mac 600s come to mind and fit all of the above (as far as I can tell). Anyone here have any experience with said fixtures and is able to make a recommendation? Any input is mush appreciated!

Thanks,
-Jeff

 

[danTt]

If you're looking to spend less than $1000 initially, I'm going to go out on a limb and say you shouldn't waste money on moving lights. Why? You probably won't be able to afford repairs when they inevitably break, and probably won't be able to afford lamps when you should replace them. Moving lights are something I highly recommend renting on an as-needed basis, it saves the maintence costs and lets you upgrade as needed without being stuck with a large magical piece of broken equipment.

 

[soundlight]

All of those fixtures are old, use costly lamps, and are prone to failure. If you have a stock of parts, that's all well and good. But I can tell you from personal experience with 2 of the 3 units you listed (Studio Colors and MAC600s) that you don't want to bother. Several years back I worked with a company that was still using MAC500s and MAC600s. They had a guy who ran their "Martin Hospital", constantly doing board-level repairs, swapping parts out, and the like. They'd take him to their big gigs and have him in the back doing repairs on their fixtures they'd already swapped out with spares so they could have the next round of spares ready to go. I now work for a company that still uses Studio Color 575s. We're able to keep them going because we used to have dozens and dozens of HES lights and so we have parts for days - most importantly motors, which love to go bad. They don't go out often, but at least one of the 10 needs a motor probably every 2-4 rentals/productions.

If you've gotta have movers, I'd get American DJ Inno Color Beam Z19s. Not a bad little light (I've seen the Inno Color Beam Z7 in person, and I was quite impressed). I'm one of those guys the reps hate because I try real hard to make their lights fail. Wasn't able to make that little Z7 fail. The Z19 is gonna have the output you need, while also being very light, brighter in any saturated color, and not requiring those expensive lamps. I was able to get a half decent warm white out of it, too.

If you want to go ahead and plunk down the money you'd spend on the first 2 lamp changes and get some real movers, get Chauvet Rogue R2 washes. Really nice lights. Done a few installs with them, they're brighter than a MAC Aura & they get narrower. They're also brighter in any mildly saturated color than any of the movers you listed (other than the Studio Beams, but to get good Studio Beams that would last you you'd need to pay more than you want to, and those units were problematic to begin with). I can 100% recommend Rogue R2 washes as a solid purchase that would reliably fill your needs & not require lamps. If you're in good with a Chauvet dealer, you should be able to get a pretty good deal on these, especially if you want to buy at least 4.

 

[Jeff Lelko]

Thanks for the input thus far. Believe me, I'd rather rent versus own, however the business case on this one warrants owning as they'd see use regularly enough. I already own a fair number of moving lights as it is (of all types), so I'm plenty aware that these would need service and repairs from time to time, however it's disconcerting to hear that the Mac 600s and Studio Color 575s are really that unreliable. The reason I'm looking into the higher wattages is that these need to throw a solid 75 - 100ft and still be somewhat effective. That's why as of now the Studio Beam is the frontrunner in my search. I'd love to use Mac 700s, though even used they're a bit over what I'm willing to spend. I guess to back up a step, I need long-throw color mixing with reasonable control over beam size/shape. Moving is nice, though I can do without, and they'll be working in concert with S4s and Par 64s to help fill out stages up to 60ft wide x 40ft deep. As popular as LED is, I'd strongly prefer CMY mixing discharge versus RGBW mixing LED. I'll keep the Rogue R2 heads in mind though - thanks for the recommendation on them. I'm looking to get no less than 4 and probably no more than 8 fixtures, depending on which unit I settle on. The old Elation CYM Zoom 575s would be ideal, though nearly impossible to find these days!

Would you be able to elaborate on the issues you've seen with Studio Beams? They look like a good fit on paper, but real-world performance would be great to compare that to!

Thanks again for the suggestions!
-Jeff

 

[Casey]

I have to agree with danTt. In that price range, it is very difficult to get a moving light. Even with 'value' in mind, in that price range you will be looking at heavily used or DJ products.

Unless you have much experience as a moving light tech, repairing moving lights will likely be farmed out and that costs money. And DJ moving lights often times cannot be repaired.

Buying moving lights is a lot like buying a boat or a plane. It is like buying a ticket to recurring expenses. And you are looking at buying a heavily used boat...

 

[Pie4Weebl]

he reason I'm looking into the higher wattages is that these need to throw a solid 75 - 100ft and still be somewhat effective. That's why as of now the Studio Beam is the frontrunner in my search. I'd love to use Mac 700s, though even used they're a bit over what I'm willing to spend.
Thanks again for the suggestions!
-Jeff

None of the lights you mentioned could come anywhere near shooting that far. I'm not even really comfortable shooting Mac 700s that far.... Why do you need such a long throw?

You mentioned 60x40 stages, so are these just being added to a 120K rig?

 

[soundlight]

For that throw I'd be looking to spend more and get used VL3000 washes (not 3500s, those cost way more used), or used MAC2000 washes (more recent models w/ electronic ballast).

 

[Jeff Lelko]

Victor - yes, give or take depending on the venue. I'm a mobile operator/designer - most venues I work at have some sort of light system installed. Some have their stages lit properly, most don't, so I supplement such installed systems with my personal and/or rented inventory depending on the needs of the event. The installed systems are all conventional (or at least at the venues I routinely work at). The reason I mention 60x40 with 100ft throw is that this would be a worst-case setup, or should I say largest case setup. I've been getting by just fine with my 150w and 250w movers at smaller locations, but those obviously can't handle the larger stages with any effectivity so I'm looking to see what can. As other have pointed out, yes, I'd much rather rent, however these would be used often enough that I'd like to at least see what a ballpark figure for buying is (and what it is I need to be shopping for).

Thanks for the suggestion on the VL3000s. I've noticed quite a few Mac 2ks out there that can fit in my price range or at get least close. I don't mind growing my budget a bit if it means getting the right tool for the job. I'm just trying to get an idea of what's out there. My only concern with Mac 2ks is that as mentioned above, I'm a mobile operator and I don't always have 'real' power available to me. Being able to run on 120v is a must, and the attractive thing about Studio Colors and even Mac 700s is that I can run 2 or 3 on a 20A circuit depending on the fixture, whereas it'd only be 1 Mac 2k per circuit on 120v.

To take things in a slightly different direction, would opting for 700w Source 4s with 10 degree lens barrels be a better choice? I can do without moving, but I really need the long throw capability to help wash out a stage from a distance. Despite not having color mixing, might this be something to consider? Or, would more of a "beam" or "profile" automated fixture with a decently tight zoom be an option over the wash-style fixtures? Providing supplemental stage light with some movement (if possible) would be the primary use of these fixtures.

Thanks for the input!
-Jeff

 

[Jeff Lelko]

..would opting for 700w Source 4s...

* 750w

 

[MNicolai]

The reason I mention 60x40 with 100ft throw is that this would be a worst-case setup, or should I say largest case setup. I've been getting by just fine with my 150w and 250w movers at smaller locations, but those obviously can't handle the larger stages with any effectivity so I'm looking to see what can.

My general rule is not to buy equipment based on worst case scenarios. Unless the 100' throw is a couple times a month I'd say forget it. Buy what you need to cover 85% of your gigs, and leave the other 15% as situations where you can rent. If the client wants more than you're stocked for, let them decide if the extra fixtures are worth increasing your fee.

To take things in a slightly different direction, would opting for 700w Source 4s with 10 degree lens barrels be a better choice? I can do without moving, but I really need the long throw capability to help wash out a stage from a distance. Despite not having color mixing, might this be something to consider? Or, would more of a "beam" or "profile" automated fixture with a decently tight zoom be an option over the wash-style fixtures? Providing supplemental stage light with some movement (if possible) would be the primary use of these fixtures.

Really depends what you want to do from 100' away. A 10° is an almost useless fixture at a short throw distance, so for your smaller applications plan on having a set of wider angle lens tubes, and in your case I'd think for those shorter applications you'd be better suited with a PAR unless you really need an ellipsoidal for some reason.

When you say you want to "wash out" the stage, do you mean you want to hit it with a color wash or do you want to blast it with no-color? Do you want to wash the entire stage or do you want to highlight specifically the performers? How high do you anticipate being able to hang these units 100' away? 8' off the ground on stands so they act like headlights or from a lighting position above the audience? Would you need to buy your own dimmers to power these units and the associated cabling?

 

[Jeff Lelko]

Thanks Mike - fair enough about only stocking to the 85% level. I know that everyone has to draw the line somewhere on the buy vs. rent trade - I'm just trying to figure out exactly where mine is! I'm to the point that I need to stock something for longer throws, but it's starting to sound like a mover may not be a reasonable way to go about doing this, or at least not one to own.

I agree that a fixed angle S4 would need to have a few lens barrels for different applications, but I'm okay with that seeing as S4s are relatively cheap and need far less TLC over that of a mover. I have no shortage of Pars for short throws and the dimmers to go with them, so adding some S4s to the lineup wouldn't need much other support equipment to go with it. In truth, I'd prefer to stock S4s since they're lower cost and much easier to maintain. The reason I started looking to movers is that my power and trussing real-estate can be very limited in some situations to the point I can't gel S4s or Pars in every color I need for every angle I need, so I was hoping a handful of CMY mixers can help maximize the bang for buck in these situations. If ETC made a CMY mixer for S4s I wouldn't even question adding them and we'd be done! Seeing as they don't (and I'm not aware of anyone that does), my attention turned to units such as the Studio Color 575 since it's sort of somewhat similar in at least being more of a stage light that can color mix.

I mean wash out as in fill the gaps/holes that exist in installed systems. Some lighter color will of course be necessary, but having an even facial light is the goal more so than having deeply saturated colors. It's be nice to have a zoom or iris on the fixture to highlight individual people/locations on stage, but I'd take an even wash over the entire stage as the priority. Of course I know one light can't do this - it'd be many working together. Heights on the truss locations vary from 12ft to about 35ft depending on the location. I usually try to get the lights up as high as possible and avoid 'headlights' to minimize spill on the CYC, but I don't always get too much control over that sort of thing. I know to most this scenario screams high output LEDs, though for facial light I really prefer the warmness of halogen lamps or CTO discharge. I still wouldn't mind seeing a demo of the Chauvet Rogue Series mentioned above though...

So gathering what you and others have said, it looks like if I go the moving light route Mac 700s, Mac 2ks, or VL3000s would be the most capable option, though of course I'm taking my chances with buying used old stock that will be expensive to maintain. Alternatively, S4s can work and are cheaper though I lose my color mixing. Anything else such as a Studio Color wouldn't have the long-throw range and would still be a gamble on reliability/maintainability - I get what I pay for. I appreciate the input!

-Jeff

 

[JohnD]

Don't forget about the seachanger.
http://seachangeronline.com/
You might search for current used prices.
https://www.usedlighting.com/24259/seachanger-cym-xg-legacy

 

[Jeff Lelko]

Wow, I didn't know those existed! Definitely a possibility. Thanks for the tip!

-Jeff

 

[BobHealey]

There's always the poor man's approach to long throw movers - Right Arms, AutoYokes, and I-cues with a conventional Source 4 inside it. The I-cue won't work with a 5 or 10 deg Source 4, but will work with a 360Q 6x22 with the 14 degree Source 4 lens mounting plate.

 

[Pie4Weebl]

If source 4's are bright enough for ya, you have dimming and just want a stage wash with color mixing, I've got 15 High End Color Commands at my venue that the head of lighting would like to sell off.

 

[Lightguy5]

JohnD beat me to it. We picked up a few of the SeaChangers with the XtraGreen, used, a year or two ago and haven't had a problem with them yet. Great mixing capability and if static doesn't bother you they're great. The 750w lamp is a must.

 

[Jeff Lelko]

I think the SeaChangers really fit the bill for what I'm looking for. Thanks for the offer on the Color Commands Victor. I considered those a while back but was scared off by them needing the power/data box in order to work. Looking into the SeaChangers a bit more, would going for the SeaChanger NEMO be the best option for me? I'm not too familiar with the plasma lamp, but otherwise looks like it'll deliver plenty of output and I like the fact it only needs one power and DMX lead. I also like that I can match it with the appropriate Source 4 barrel and accessories to fit my applications too. Any input on the performance of the NEMO versus the original CMY XG? I noted the fourth green wheel on the CMY XG versus the shutter on the NEMO. Is that really a big deal, and are there any other drawbacks to the NEMO?

-Jeff

 

[Robert Osborne]

looking for a great moving fixture? try the chalet rogue r2 beam