My Comments on White Space Devices

[jkowtko]

Okay, well it is good that someone is thinking of the otherwise powerless consumers ... I certainly think a dedicated frequency spectrum would be good to have, provide it can support the required number of intermod-free wireless channels.

That latest FCC news release unfortunately stays pretty vague. It does seem to be putting the onus on the new devices to "stay out of the way" of "incumbent" services, but it also implies that the incumbent services are registered. If that means every theater needs to register their frequencies with the FCC, I have no problem with that as long as there is little or no cost involved. And this is similar to what we do today with our freq mgmt programs, to stay out of the range of local broadcast stations.

And as far as interference goes, some current wireless frequencies do seem to pick up the edge of cell phone rings, so the curtain speech request to "turn off all cell phones, etc" still holds and could apply to these new devices as well. However in a sports arena or rock concert, I guess you can't ask that of the guests ....

 

[mbenonis]

And as far as interference goes, some current wireless frequencies do seem to pick up the edge of cell phone rings, so the curtain speech request to "turn off all cell phones, etc" still holds and could apply to these new devices as well. However in a sports arena or rock concert, I guess you can't ask that of the guests ....

It is worth noting that cell phone interference has nothing to do with wireless mics, and everything to do with poorly designed audio circuits. Cell phones operate around 850 MHz and in the 1800 and 1900 MHz bands - far above where we operate. What is actually happening is that TDMA cell phones (GSM, like AT&T and T-Mobile) transmit short bursts a few hundred times per second. This literally causes interference in bad audio circuits at the same frequency as the time spacing, plus harmonics (probably odd harmonics, since it looks like a square wave). The good news is that cell phone interference needs to happen pretty close to the audio gear, so an audience member probably won't cause any problems.

These new White Space devices, though, are a completely different ball game, and as they start to come out theatres need to think very carefully about how they will force people to turn off their devices, and keep them off.

 

[waynehoskins]

If you re-read the document carefully you will notice that these are REQUESTS made TO the FCC, and not statements made BY the FCC. There is a group, the PISC, that wants to see these changes made, and manufacturers held accountable. I doubt it will happen. Also note that this NPRM was released in August, before the test results came out.

And it doesn't help that "PISC" IS the New Owners of 700 megs. Google, Verizon, AT&T, those guys. "Public Interest", right.

It's gonna be an interesting ride .. in the same sense as "may you live in interesting times".

 

[museav]

And it doesn't help that "PISC" IS the New Owners of 700 megs. Google, Verizon, AT&T, those guys. "Public Interest", right.

I don't think that is quite right, I believe the PISC actually a coalition of several other 'public interest' groups, some of which are essentially fronts for Google and special interest groups. But the successful 700MHz bidders actually stand to get screwed on this, they paid big dollars for spectrum to, in some cases, deliver the same type of access that the PISC claimed as the basis for their requesting free spectrum. In fact Qualcomm, one of the firms that did invest millions in the 700MHz auction, submitted a very pointed response to the FCC on just this issue. Let's face it, it is business. I believe that Google and some others drove up the costs for the 700MHz bandwidth, let their competitors invest millions in those auctions and then managed to use the 'public interest' get their own free spectrum access. That may be good business, but I agree that I don't think it was really the public's interest being served.

 

[MNicolai]

It is worth noting that cell phone interference has nothing to do with wireless mics, and everything to do with poorly designed audio circuits. Cell phones operate around 850 MHz and in the 1800 and 1900 MHz bands - far above where we operate. What is actually happening is that TDMA cell phones (GSM, like AT&T and T-Mobile) transmit short bursts a few hundred times per second. This literally causes interference in bad audio circuits at the same frequency as the time spacing, plus harmonics (probably odd harmonics, since it looks like a square wave). The good news is that cell phone interference needs to happen pretty close to the audio gear, so an audience member probably won't cause any problems.

These new White Space devices, though, are a completely different ball game, and as they start to come out theatres need to think very carefully about how they will force people to turn off their devices, and keep them off.

It's a simple solution. Install jammers. They did it in Russia, and it works great. If you get it to focus on the cell phone bandwidths, it would work great. That does nothing to solve the issue of white space devices though, as they'd be on the same frequencies that you'd want the jammers to not affect.

Mobiles: exeunt after St Petersburg theatre installs jammers | World news | The Guardian


Here's an idea though that could solve all of our problems if it worked well and wasn't outrageously expensive.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/naturalnano-develops-cellphoneblocking-paint-157991.php

 

[elite1trek]

It's a simple solution. Install jammers. They did it in Russia, and it works great. If you get it to focus on the cell phone bandwidths, it would work great. That does nothing to solve the issue of white space devices though, as they'd be on the same frequencies that you'd want the jammers to not affect.

Just to add a bit of a side note...If you install cell phone jammers, and somebody finds out, the FCC will fine the crap out of you, your venue, and anybody else that was involved.

This might also be against local and state laws.

Now...Wrapping your building in copper mesh to create a Faraday Cage...that's not so illegal.

Faraday cage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[MNicolai]

That's why people are starting to petition the FCC here in the states to revoke the ban on jamming cell phone signals. The irony is that you can paint your way into a black hole of reception, but if you actively jam, it's illegal.

I don't see why something can't be worked out with all of the different ideas out there though.

 

[avkid]

Just to add a bit of a side note...If you install cell phone jammers, and somebody finds out, the FCC will fine the crap out of you

Not only the FCC, but local cops, the FBI and anyone else who wants to get in on the party.
You may also expect lawsuits from individuals and carriers.

 

[MNicolai]

Not only the FCC, but local cops, the FBI and anyone else who wants to get in on the party.
You may also expect lawsuits from individuals and carriers.

Double (or triple) jeopardy, anyone?

It wouldn't be cheap, but consider if each and every theatre was in a Faraday cage. No more annoying phone calls during shows, and there's no risk you'll interfere with anyone and vise versa. People could leave their phones with house management if they would like to be notified of an incoming call. It would be like a coat check for mobile phones.

If the paint w/ nanotech worked, then you could even go as far as to disable the system in between performances and during intermission, and engage it again during the show.

I'm just throwing out ideas though. All of my engineering courses have said that no matter stupid an idea may sound, during a brainstorming session no idea should be left off of the table at first.

 

[lieperjp]

Double (or triple) jeopardy, anyone?

No more annoying phone calls during shows, and there's no risk you'll interfere with anyone and vise versa.

And people texting!!!!!!!!!

 

[deadlygopher]

And people texting!!!!!!!!!

I don't think I could handle not being able to text in my theater. Occasionally texts can be handy show-saving tools.

 

[Sony]

Double (or triple) jeopardy, anyone?

It wouldn't be cheap, but consider if each and every theatre was in a Faraday cage. No more annoying phone calls during shows, and there's no risk you'll interfere with anyone and vise versa. People could leave their phones with house management if they would like to be notified of an incoming call. It would be like a coat check for mobile phones.

If the paint w/ nanotech worked, then you could even go as far as to disable the system in between performances and during intermission, and engage it again during the show.

I'm just throwing out ideas though. All of my engineering courses have said that no matter stupid an idea may sound, during a brainstorming session no idea should be left off of the table at first.

The cage isn't such a bad idea and you wouldn't need nanotechnology to turn it on and off. If I recall correctly, in order for a Faraday Cage to work it must be grounded. If you could isolate the Faraday layer in a building from the Ground you could turn it on and off just by connecting it and disconnecting it from Ground. I may be wrong though...I'm not an expert in this field. Just trying to remember what I can from Physics class 4 years ago

 

[elite1trek]

I don't think I could handle not being able to text in my theater. Occasionally texts can be handy show-saving tools.

Not only that, but can you imagine what that would do to box office sales, directly and indirectly. If people can't text during a show, most won't even go to the show. Its the sad truth about our industry...its dying.

The cage isn't such a bad idea and you wouldn't need nanotechnology to turn it on and off. If I recall correctly, in order for a Faraday Cage to work it must be grounded. If you could isolate the Faraday layer in a building from the Ground you could turn it on and off just by connecting it and disconnecting it from Ground. I may be wrong though...I'm not an expert in this field. Just trying to remember what I can from Physics class 4 years ago

True in theory..but not necessarily in practice. Even if it wasn't grounded, it would still cause cell phone (and wireless audio) signals to bounce around, and wreak all sorts of unpredictable havoc. And talk about funny ground problems when it was connected.

 

[avare]

It was just released, the latest FCC decision on whitespace. It is a long document. Without having read all of it, the gist of it is that it does not appear to be as bad as it might have been technically. Bureaucratically it ignores the "illegality" of wireless mics and how to legalize them.