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my first fly

Discussion in 'Scenery, Props, and Rigging' started by danl, Sep 22, 2004.

  1. danl

    danl Member

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    what is the best sting/rope/wire to use for tieing sets to fly lines??? how will we know everything is secure enough not to fall???

    one is a "curtain" that was made of several 2' vertical banners stapled to a long piece of wood and the other is a set of large (flat) wedding bells... for the curtain, the ties will not be seen by the audience, so we aren't concerned visually with what is used, but the bells are to look as if they are floating, so can you use monofilament, and if so - how do i know what type/strength to use???
     
  2. hollinj

    hollinj Member

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    I would suggest some type of aircraft cable. We use the stuff for about everything. You can get in about any strength so the fear of it calapsing shouldnt be a probelm. With wrench lock clips (cant think of what their called off the top of my head)... But I would say aircraft cable is your best bet....
     
  3. hollinj

    hollinj Member

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    Yeah, I'm an idiot I read your post wrong, maybe just a high test fishing line?
     
  4. jwl868

    jwl868 Active Member

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    And if you go the fishing line route, make sure you tie it with a fisherman's knot.

    I've used fishing line on light weight material, like foam board and garland. I've used the strongest weight line I could find, too.

    I read that the knot weakens the strength of the line, so use multiple lines. A 30 lb test line might only be 15 lb test at the knot. Then, consider a safety factor of 10, then that's just good for 1.5 lb per line.

    Sounds like you may have something heavy - fishing line may not be the best choice...

    Joe
     
  5. Roadbox

    Roadbox Member

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    If you want to know what you should be rigging with, its good to also ask, "if this thing comes down, will it hurt someone?" If yes, then you really would be better to use rated A/C cable (aka wire rope) and cable clips. 1/8" wire rope is usually plenty good enough for light to medium weight rigging. If no-one would get hurt if they fell loose, then black tie line might be okay. Monofiliment? IMHO, good for fishing, not for rigging.

    John O.
     
  6. wolf825

    wolf825 Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    What are the dimensions of the piece, and what is the weight of the pieces? How many "points" are you planning and also how are you attaching this line to the piece? Eye bolts?? Also--is this dead-hung or will it move or travel during the show? Inertia and movement can add stresses you have to consider sometimes. Just some things to consider. Not trying to over-complicate this--just some points that everyone should think of.

    Whenever you rig something overhead, no matter how small, you want to consider the safe practices always. You do not want this to fall under weight or if it should get pulled on or if the line should be up against or in the beam of a theater light. Fishing line has properties that makes it a very poor choice for rigging for several reasons--first off it stretches under tension and is not designed to be under constant tension for long periods of time; second, fishing line is stiff and its surface is smooth, and unless you know how to tie good fishing knots--its hard to get a good solid "knot" to bind and hold in it--especially the larger lb lines. Also with fishing line--its susceptable to the elements such as heat and light and therefore it can break down or be effected by such things over time. 1/8in aircraft cable (wire rope) and Crosby clips (since I doubt you guys have a nico-press) is your best bet for most small projects that are under 50 lbs IMO. Tie-line is decent for small projects too..but you need to consider the wieght and size of your piece. If this project piece is large or heavy, I would suggest you find someone locally to help you with it as well...

    If you can post some more information, folks may be able to help you with choosing the right materials and suggestions for your project, but overall without knowing more I would consider air-craft cable (wire rope) in 1/8inch at the very least...

    Hope this helps...
    -w
     
  7. danl

    danl Member

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    check out this graphic that i created to explain the curtains...

    http://www.revolutionfreedom.com/curtain.html

    first of all... it extends 30 feet across and is approximately 14 feet tall... each banner (red, white, blue) is individually stapled to 1X4 beams... there are 4" between each banner and a hole drilled in the center of each of those spaces... i figured i would tie the entire piece to the line using those holes, but was unsure about the type of material to use... i found a spool of the wire rope in the prop room of this theater (it's about 1/8" thick, perhaps), but i've never used it before, so any help you can offer would be great...

    again, the image i'm referring to is located at:

    http://www.revolutionfreedom.com/curtain.html
     
  8. jwl868

    jwl868 Active Member

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    Looks like 16 to 20 lb just in the wood. Definitely not a good application for fishing line. Since that part is hidden, you should use something more substantial and easier to work with, as suggested by the previous posts.

    (One thing I didn't mention was that the times I've used the fishing line, the items have been up for less than three days. But it is difficult to work with - tying off a precise length is hard because the standard fishing knots are slip knots, so there is some movement fter the knot is cinched.)

    You didn't mention what the flat bells were made of or how much they weigh.


    Joe
     
  9. danl

    danl Member

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    i think we'll be making the bells out of blue extruded foam insulation (the 4X8 sheets you get at lumber companies)... they'll be cut out and outlined in 1/2" nylon rope...

    as for the banners, i'd like to use the wire rope, but i'm not familiar with the crosby clamps that were mentioned earlier... can someone explain what they are and how they are used???

    thanks!!!
     
  10. Roadbox

    Roadbox Member

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    Danl,

    Here are some images for you that I hope will help you understand easily how cable clips (Crosbies) are afixed to wire rope for overhead use.

    http://users.erols.com/roadbox/RiggingDoneRight 1.jpg
    http://users.erols.com/roadbox/RiggingDoneRight 2.jpg
    http://users.erols.com/roadbox/Cable ClipsC.jpg

    With lighter weight items, I have sometimes gotten away with 2 clips per cable end, but when my students are looking, its always 3 ! You want to make sure that the clip is "saddled" correctly, the saddle always goes on the active/live end of the cable - as in the old saying, "never saddle a dead horse".

    All that said, for what you're doing and with the many number of points you have to tie from on your wooden banner batten, tie line will do fine. Back in my cheap scenery days, I have used sandwich battens akin to what you have, at the top of crudely built backdrops. Then with holes drilled through the meat of the wood, black tie-line was more than adequate to secure the sandwich batten to a moveable pipe batten. The wood batten becomes a proxy for the jute webbing were the drop, or in your case the banner piece, sewn together in the usual way.

    BTW, "Crosby" is just a brand name like Kleenex, Q-tips, or Scotch Tape. Real Crosbies are about the most expensive forged cable clips you can buy.

    John O.
     
  11. danl

    danl Member

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    wow!!! thank you so much for the links (though i'm not certain if i'd be able to differentiate between the "forged" and "cast" clips)...

    so you think that tie line will be okay... the tie line should be glazed, right??? i have actually worked with tie line before in an off broadway show in new york called "de la guarda"... we used it to rig a huge paper wall that collapsed on the audience... if i'm not mistaken, we had to be certain that it was "glazed" when we ordered it for some reason... what are the benefits of "glazed" and (i guess) "unglazed"???
     
  12. Roadbox

    Roadbox Member

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    I think what you are calling "glazed" is usually sold to me as "waxed". You can buy tie-line waxed or un-waxed variety. Last spool I bought, I asked the supplier what the difference was and was told that there was none - just depends on your personal preference. For my evil purposes, mostly for ties for backdrops, I prefer the un-waxed as it does the tight turns of going through the gommets more easily.

    John O.
     
  13. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Anyone else detecting ever so much wrong with this post in general?

    I might state some basic guidelines to this.

    The primary use of tie line where hanging goods is associated is in a no more the 40# live load each distributed over the length of drape or drop as opposed to use of wire rope that's in 1/8" a 280# live load but spaced on about 8' centers and with attachmemt both with rigging from bottom supporting hooks that support the weight and the steel hook in supporting from the bottom of the flat by way of thru bolting and further supports, a means of safety that is not yet expressed.

    Fish line while strong often and invisible to a croud some amount of feet away is not within safety or melting tolerances of more than hanging a moon shown in some scenes that might otherwise be visible in support. Fish line is not a rigging method for other than special applications.

    Any of these two differences both in type or applications making sense here? Glazed or un-glazed tie line besides the point, you don't hang a long soft flat assembly off tie line and why waste time off wire rope that has a minimum bending radius for it which would not work very well in hanging drape mean any thing?

    This thing, the "Stage Rigging Handbook" is a nice little book on rigging. It's not 100% everything but it is a lot of the word on what is normally done for rigging. Other more general books on stagecraft will also help. I seriously recommend these books and just saying no to rigging anything when not trained in such things.

    The debate on the weight verses flammability of foam scenery is in the past. This rigging of it still needs to follow some specific guidelines. Yes tie line glazed or un-glazed is safe for about 24" on center attachment to pipe... after that it's about a 8' to 12' on center rigging that requires wire rope an rigging the flat for a bottom hang as opposed to grommited top hang.
     
  14. Roadbox

    Roadbox Member

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    Ship,
    Not sure of your point here, unless it is to be more specific about standards and practices. That I can certainly appreciate. However, I think if you look at danl's diagram, he is in fact not flying a flat as you suggest, but a piece of lumber to which fabric banners are attached. Correct so far? Also, as I understand it, he is proposing using the rough 4" O.C. holes drilled between each banner as points though which he'll run whatever to attach to his pipe batton. Correct? The assembly he proposes to hang, as I see it, will weigh less than a standard drop which usually has its ties on 9" centers. I know what I'd do - were this a multi-piece assembly such as flatage, I certainly recommend the use wire rope and proper hanging hardware/bolted/supported from the bottom/etc, but that's not what he's got going on. So I guess I'm asking what you think the correct answer to danl's rigging problem is.

    John O.
     
  15. seanb

    seanb Member

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    Wanted to contribute to this a bit...

    Fishing line is allright for things like paper stars, or little decorations. I wouldn't trust it for a Extruded Poly Styrene Wedding Bell - it might do some damage if it were to hit someone on the head.

    Sash-cord is decent, though again I lean away from it if I'm actually carrying a load (vs just moving a traveller, or pulling something out of the way)

    When using aircraft cable, I strongly suggest that people try and use Nicopress sleeves instead of crosbie clips - the failure rate is much smaller, and a properly applied Nicopress can carry somewhere from 95-100% of the A/C strenth to the connect. Crosbie clips are, in my opinion, worse looking and more difficult to apply correctly. There is, however, more money to be spent in Nicopress as you need to buy the actual press to crimp the connectors. You only need two, though, which is an advantage as you need less "fold back" distance for a proper connection (in standard A/C cable, this is usually about 4 inches - check with manufacturer for correct distances)
     
  16. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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