Mixers/Consoles Need digital console advice

[pacman]

I'm looking to move into a digital console from an Allen & Heath GL4000 48ch. My reasons: scene/snapshot recall, increased input capacity, on-board fx allowing a reduction some existing outboard gear & cable clutter, reducing the console footprint somewhat, and possible use of a "one-cable" stage box for bringing additional lines from stage since I have no more conduit capacity for copper. However, I'm in a situation where I still need more local I/O than a lot of the digital consoles have, since they put virtually everything in the stage box. Use is in a multi-purpose performing arts center hosting everything from talking heads to musicals with orchestra and 30 to 40 wireless mics. I seem to be doing more concerts lately, but these are primarily local gospel choirs and such, not touring acts.

I originally specified the Yamaha M7CL 48ch under the mistaken notion of channel expandability via expansion cards. In May, I discovered the M7 limit in accessing only 48 channels, regardless of the lines added via cards. So while I've not totally ruled out the M7, I am considering other options.

Besides the M7, I've been investigating Allen & Heath's iLive T112, the Soundcraft Si2 & Si3, and the Digico SD-8. I've done the Yamaha M7 school, so I have some hands-on with it. I am currently in the process trying to locate nearby venues with any of the other consoles for a hands-on overview. I'm also trying to go through the downloaded manuals for each console.

I've done enough review to know some of the major points for each console.
- There are probably more M7s out there than any of the other four I mentioned combined. That means a larger user base & greater likelihood of finding an experienced board op should I need a night off or local help with a problem. Factory support seems to be good. No layers.
- The Soundcraft boards are drop-in replacements for analog consoles, so all I/O is local with no stage box option at present. I've heard something may be in the works, but have not confirmed it. It's nice that the fader count is high enough to keep layers to a minimum. While the Si3 channel count hits 64, the Si2 tops out at 48.
- A&H iLive T series seems to have some good reviews and a great feature set for the price. DSP is in the rack on stage & the rack is the same as the big-brother iLive, I think. Fewer physical faders means more layers. Wish they offered the 114 control surface with the T-series. I don't know much more about it yet, though.
- The Digico SD-8 is the Cadillac of the group. Great features and reviews with the beautiful 15" central screen, but pricing puts it pretty much at the upper extreme of my budget and gasping for air. Recording capability via MADI is really attractive. 60 mono or stereo channels with full processing, but a relatively low fader count & layers four-deep. It's an odd looking creature, with the black & gold color scheme though, don't you think?

Of all the pros & cons I know so far, none are deal breakers. I've got all those copper lines already in place, so the lack of stage box with the Soundcraft could work. Yamaha has the new stage box for the M7 & the price is right. I'm a little concerned about the low local I/O count with the iLive & SD-8, but I think I could make it work with any of these consoles.

I would really like to hear from those of you who have experience with any of these in a live sound environment; especially those who have worked with more than one console on the list.

In summary, scene/snapshot programming is important for me, particularly on the theatricals where there are so many characters and rapid changes. Ease of scene programming, editing and inserting new scenes is essential. There are others who will use the console, so learning curve is a factor to consider. Although I expect to exceed the 48 channel input capacity of the M7 & Si2, these are limited to a few times per year; I could probably submix some groups on another board for those occasions, if need be. Some local I/O is important, although I still need to determine what my absolute count must be. Finally, I suspect I am like many moving from analog, who fear losing a too loud/soft actor on a body mic & I can't find the fader layer he's on quickly enough.

I apologize for the long post, but I hope it has given enough info to help you offer some tips and suggestions.

 

[mixmaster]

Couple quick thoughts
If you are looking at running out of channels right out of the box...get a bigger box. You mention that you may need more than 48 ch 1 or 2 times a year now, next year it'll be 3 or 4 times, and in a couple years you'll be kicking yourself for not buying a bigger board. Besides that you also said that you were trying to shrink console footprint. How much is a submixer board plus your new board going to take up?
I've not used any of the boards you are talking about, we have an LS9 here (64 channels on 2 layers FWIW) and that's a bit smaller than what you are dealing with, but once you get used to working a digital surface, navigating between the layers really isn't much of an issue. Logically laying out input assignments helps, and most digital boards allow you to soft patch inputs to faders so you can lay out the board as it makes sense to you. Once you go digital and get used to having all the toys at your fingertips you won't want go back.
Soundcraft and A&H are both getting good reviews by the pros right now. I wish I had held off on my LS9 purchase from last year, as I've never liked the sound of Yamaha gear, with digital technology growing at the rate that it is, I suppose we'll never get ahead of the curve....

 

[DaveySimps]

The LS9-32 is a great board, but you will be on the fringe of its capacity for your larger shows, not that it should be an issue. In order to accommodate more than your 32 channels on board, you would need to get a couple of cards for it, which might be a good chance to try 2 of their new stage boxes (would increase your capabilities to 64 channels).

The Ilive is great. The learning curve for me was much greater than the Yamaha or Si series boards. I have heard a few others say the same. This could be an issue if you are regularly training subs, or road guys on the desk.

I have used the SI3 a few times now. I would not purchase one for awhile. While I expect it to be a great board in the future, there are WAY to many software issues right now. Plus, all of the features don't even work yet. A company I freelance for has been beta testing one since this winter, and the still will not send it out on a gig with out a back up desk. The Digico is a fantastic desk, but quite a price jump compared to the others.

What is your budget? Sounds like you may be in the range of a Yamaha PM5D. That is a good desk to check out as well.

I think you are on the right track about trying to find what others have in your area as well. It can have many benefits.

~Dave

 

[pacman]

Couple quick thoughts
If you are looking at running out of channels right out of the box...get a bigger box. You mention that you may need more than 48 ch 1 or 2 times a year now, next year it'll be 3 or 4 times, and in a couple years you'll be kicking yourself for not buying a bigger board. Besides that you also said that you were trying to shrink console footprint. How much is a submixer board plus your new board going to take up?

Good points, I've given the same advice in similar situations. Sometimes it is easier to gain clarity through someone else's eyes. Thanks!

 

[pacman]

The Ilive is great. The learning curve for me was much greater than the Yamaha or Si series boards. I have heard a few others say the same. This could be an issue if you are regularly training subs, or road guys on the desk.

The Digico is a fantastic desk, but quite a price jump compared to the others.

What is your budget? Sounds like you may be in the range of a Yamaha PM5D. That is a good desk to check out as well.
~Dave

As an example, what did you find more difficult to grasp on the iLive over the Yamaha & Soundcraft boards?

I have a quote for the SD-8 at somewhere in the upper $30ks. I could make that happen by forgoing a good portion of the other purchases planned for the year, but I cannot consider anything at a higher price tag this year due to a 25% budget cut.

I have a quote on the Si3 at $30,500, the iLive T112 at just under $22k and the M7 48 with meter bridge at a little under $18k. The stage box is another $3k+, but there is the Yamaha $1,500 rebate when you purchase both. These prices would likely be a little lower when actually bid out.

I was under the impression that even a used PM5D would be over $50k.

Thanks for your comments.

 

[DaveySimps]

For me the learning curve was due to issues with the syntax on some of the features of the board. It was not as intuitive to me as the Yamahas and the Si3 were. I found myself having to think more before I could do things on the desk, so it slowed me up.

You are right about the PM5D pricing. I thought the prices on the Digico and Ilive were a bit more than what you listed, that is the only reason why I brought it up. I have never priced out either of them though.

~Dave

 

[avkid]

If you have the funds available it is definitely worth your while to look into the Soundcraft Vi6.

It changed my opinion of digital consoles, along with a few of my analog comrades.

The software is stable and user friendly, if it wasn't stable Rat wouldn't be sending them out on the road.

 

[pacman]

If you have the funds available it is definitely worth your while to look into the Soundcraft Vi6.

It changed my opinion of digital consoles, along with a few of my analog comrades.

The software is stable and user friendly, if it wasn't stable Rat wouldn't be sending them out on the road.

I'd love to have a Vi6, but it looks like it lists for nearly $87k. I'm pretty well limited to something under $40k this year (and probably for the next several, as the economy recovers).

 

[Dionysus]

While limited to 48 channels I just finished a festival mixing on the Roland M-400 "V-Mixing System" console. It was not bad. It was not great either, not sure how much it is, but I figure it is a lot cheaper than a bunch of the competitors.
What immediately brought it to mind is the fact that it runs off of Roland's REAC digital snake system. two cat-5e lines (etherCON or not) connect two snake heads where-ever you want them with 3 different snake heads available. The design was kind of neat.
The fact that you can connect any computer, and with a free download, control the console from the computer (in addition to controlling from the desk). I had my laptop sitting there hooked up to the console and modified all of my 31-band EQs and effects on it, while I mixed on the console.
for the same festival we ran an M7 for mainstage monitors, and a europa for mainstage FOH.

It was a little clumsy and slow to learn, but it's all there. I think I'd take an M7 over it any day however. Still something else to think about. I always like to hear about new gear.

 

[soundlight]

I'd get an LS9-32, and get 2 Cobranet cards (or Ethersound, if you insist). Spend the rest of the budget on a full Whirlwind E-Snake/E-Mod system - gives you higher quality preamps than the yammie stuff. That will give you 32 inputs and 16 outputs local to the board, and up to 32 inputs and 32 outputs at stage depending on how you configure the E-Snake/E-Mod system. 2 pages of channel faders, very easy to navigate. I was very hesitant about converting to digital, but the LS9 is really quick and easy to learn.

For the E-Snake/E-Mod system, you can get a combination of E-Snake Frames, ES2s, CO2s, CO8s, CI2Ls, CI8Ms, CI8Ls, etc - as many as you need and where you need them. For instance, put a Co8 in your amp rack for 8 outputs just over a cat 5 cable. The ES2 and ESF (now called ES3) take input/output cards: the ESF can do up to 32 channels in and 32 channels out depending on the number of cards, and the ES2 can do either 16 in, 16 out, or 8 of each (has capability for processing 16 channels). The CO and CI series stuff is Cobranet only (ES2 and ESF can be Ethersound or Cobranet), so if you use Ethersound but want CO or CI series devices, you'll need an E-Mod PXP.

The only downside of using a Cobranet-only network with an E-Snake and using the LS9 is that you have to control gain and phantom power from a computer, so that takes a little getting used to. However, you really shouldn't have to touch gain during a show if you check things right, so this isn't as much of an issue as some think. We use little Asus Netbooks (eeePCs) for controlling ES2 gain and phantom power, and for doing cobranet configuration. If you do get Ethersound, you can remotely control gain and phantom power on the LS9 (but I don't like Ethersound due to the higher bandwidth and the fact that I'm quite comfortable with how Cobranet does things).

 

[pacman]

While limited to 48 channels I just finished a festival mixing on the Roland M-400 "V-Mixing System" console. It was not bad. It was not great either, not sure how much it is, but I figure it is a lot cheaper than a bunch of the competitors.

Yes, the Roland offers some really attractive features bundled with the snake. I believe list price with the snake is even less than the street price of the M7 48. I'd give it a serious look if they offered a decent control surface.

Were you satisfied with the quality of the built-in FX?

 

[Dionysus]

The built in effects I found cold... And they were all either the ones designed for the console, or digital 'simulations' of older roland effects units. They get the job done but I was not really that satisfied with them. I would definatly prefer using one of the external effects options to connect an SPX-90 even.

The EQ was effective, there are 4 GEQ (or paragraphic) built in that you can assign to anything, and you can also change any of the built-in effects over to a stereo EQ as well.

My setup:

Effect 1 : Stereo EQ, insterted on channels as needed. Used it for a harp, a vocal/flute/whistle mic in the wind and a few other things as the festival progressed.
Effect 2: Vocal reverb
Effect 3: Instrument Effect, a Med Plate that I modified.
Effect 4: LONG "cheesy" reverb.
(as I said they were cold... Really the whole thing was a little cold, but I made it work quite well with many compliments)

GEQ 1 & 2 : Paired Left and Right
GEQ 3 : Mix 1
GEQ 4 : Mix 2

Ext Effect 1 & 2: External 31-band EQ... Which we did not use for most of the festival, another stage needed it more. Originally this was doing Mix 1 & 2. I would of preferred another pair of monitor mixes for the system, but we did not have the amps to do it. (each mix was two EAW SM109z's).


I also found that I had to run with the gain lower than I am used to on this console. Certainly a lot lower than working with analog, and lower than some other digital.

 

[Chris15]

What immediately brought it to mind is the fact that it runs off of Roland's REAC digital snake system. two cat-5e lines (etherCON or not) connect two snake heads where-ever you want them with 3 different snake heads available. The design was kind of neat.
The fact that you can connect any computer, and with a free download, control the console from the computer (in addition to controlling from the desk). I had my laptop sitting there hooked up to the console and modified all of my 31-band EQs and effects on it, while I mixed on the console.
for the same festival we ran an M7 for mainstage monitors, and a europa for mainstage FOH.

Trick for young players: I recall that you need crossover cables with the REAC system, standard Cat 5 cables will bone you. We'll save that rant for another day...

Studio Manager for Yamaha consoles operates in the same way, ethernet control on ethernet enabled consoles - the M7 and LS9.

As to audio over ethernet transports, look to the Australian creation in Dante. There is a card for Yamaha available and Whirlwind E snake supports it. It is happy running on a shared network; the same cannot necessarily be said for either Ethersound or Cobranet...

 

[museav]

For me the learning curve was due to issues with the syntax on some of the features of the board. It was not as intuitive to me as the Yamahas and the Si3 were. I found myself having to think more before I could do things on the desk, so it slowed me up.

Was just working yesterday on an iLive with an iLive T-144 work surface and while some things are definitely a bit less intuitive at first, it didn't take that long for even an old analog guy like me to figure it out. And some of the features such as a preset console configuration for LCR with aux fed subs combined with switching between pan and sub level for each channel just by holding down a button (with separate status of both always shown) and being able to bring all the faders for the graphic EQ to the work surface with a single button are really nice. I personally like the color coding functionality, an ability some other digital consoles share. And I really like having all the processing controls right there in one area on the work surface rather than having to use multifunction encoders or the touch screen.

One of major differences I see in at least one of the consoles noted is electronic 'scribble strips' for channel identification. If you will be changing console configurations, channel assignments, etc. often then this might be a desired functionality that the Yamaha M7CL and Roland M-400 lack.

You are right about the PM5D pricing. I thought the prices on the Digico and Ilive were a bit more than what you listed, that is the only reason why I brought it up. I have never priced out either of them though.

The PM5D is probably more an iLive than iLive-T competitor in both price and modularity. The iLive-T is a great value, another console that benefits from 'trickle down' from its bigger brothers and is probably within your price range, but also shares the 48 channel limit, is the Digidesign Venue SC48. Had a chance to spend a couple of hours on one at InfoComm and it is also a very nice option.

I agree that if you think you need 48 channels quite a bit then you might want to look at something larger but there is also some logic in not compromising the vast majority of productions for the benefit of one or two.

Pacman, I know you're also in the Atlanta area, where are you located? I might be able to identify some local facilities with some of the consoles noted (the iLive I mentioned is out at Kennesaw State and I know that other departments there have been looking into purchasing an SC48 and an M-400 for other applications on campus) or possibly put you in touch with someone that can arrange a demo.

 

[Gdog]

The ls9 while powerful is not what I would recommended for medium to large productions. The interface will get on your nerves, you have to navigate using arrow buttons, no VCA's (if I recall) and the screen is really bad resolution. Not saying its a bad board but it needs some work. You may want to look at the UMX96 by EAW, I have never used it and an eaw console does sound strange but it can go up to 56ch's using digital inputs. unfortunately it is around 50K I hear. just giving you another option. Not sure on price but a profile is fairly intuitive and sounds great.

 

[Chris15]

You may want to look at the UMX96 by EAW, I have never used it and an eaw console does sound strange but it can go up to 56ch's using digital inputs.

Don't be fooled by the badge, it's a Mackie console. Loud realised however that a Mackie may not get the best reception and so stuck an EAW badge on it instead...

 

[museav]

Not sure on price but a profile is fairly intuitive and sounds great.

It's also quite a bit more money than the models originally noted. The Venue SC48 may be even more intuitive, can run any Venue series files and I believe is around the $20,000 range, this would seem to be the Digidesign offering in the price range being considered.

 

[Eboy87]

Here's a vote for the SD8. I realize it's at the top end of your budget, but it's a very nice desk, even with the black and gold color scheme. We had one come through and after spending a bit of time on it, I feel I can do just about anything I need to on it. I would have no trouble running musicals off of it. With the way I mix theatre, the 12 VCA's are perfect (I take up 3 right off the bat; VOX verb, Orch, Orch verb).

However, the Digidesign products are also top notch and just as fun to work on. The interface is even more intuitive than the DiGiCo, though the SC48 doesn't have a touch screen. I think the Digidesign would be a bit more in the realm of concerts than musicals. I've only used the Profile, but I felt a bit limited in the bus structure. I can set up the DiGiCo's buses just about any way I want.

Some thoughts. Hopefully they make sense.

 

[pacman]

One of major differences I see in at least one of the consoles noted is electronic 'scribble strips' for channel identification. If you will be changing console configurations, channel assignments, etc. often then this might be a desired functionality that the Yamaha M7CL and Roland M-400 lack.

Pacman, I know you're also in the Atlanta area, where are you located? I might be able to identify some local facilities with some of the consoles noted (the iLive I mentioned is out at Kennesaw State and I know that other departments there have been looking into purchasing an SC48 and an M-400 for other applications on campus) or possibly put you in touch with someone that can arrange a demo.

Electronic scribble strips would definitely be helpful as configuration changes more often than I'd like, particularly with the large musicals. Is my recollection correct that the iLive is limited to five characters for the channel name?

I'm aware of the SC48, but have not looked closely at it; will do so.

I am on the south side in McDonough & would greatly appreciate learning of users of any of these consoles in the area. I'll be in touch via your web site.

 

[pacman]

You may want to look at the UMX96 by EAW, I have never used it and an eaw console does sound strange but it can go up to 56ch's using digital inputs. unfortunately it is around 50K I hear. just giving you another option. Not sure on price but a profile is fairly intuitive and sounds great.

I've wondered if the UMX96 is a real product. The only place I've ever seen or heard of it is the EAW web site & at LDI in Orlando two years ago. The lsiting on the web site seems to be an afterthought. I believe the last time I looked, the data sheet download was still watermarked "Preliminary".