Need Help: House Lighting not Dimmable

Need Help. I am a newbie to lights and have learned a lot but have more to learn than I think I can haha. I am not a lighting guy, or tech guy, but I'm revamping everything because I know how important it is.

Problem:
House lights will not dim properly. They are LED disks screwed into a can. I have four bays, with 2 lines of lights in each bay. Each line has 5 lights. Total 10 lights total in 1 bay. Each bay runs together to one "Edison" plug. I plug those into a dj dimmer pack and run the dmx to a cheap Leviton n3008-00D. Currently I can only dim two bays, and very minimally. The other two bays are either all the way on or all the way off. I have confirmed they are dimmable lights. I have run through both manuals and exhausted the full capabilities of these two inexspensive units.

What I think: I think the issue is that these lights are the new LED lights made to "never die" and super cheap and all of that stuff. and its very low power being pulled. I feel like somewhere in this low cost system it doesn't have enough software to control such low settings. Like its controlling up to 256 on the dim switch, and I only need up to 20 for it to be smooth. Am I right or wrong? What do y'all think? what do I need to make it work? I can't find such a product to fix what I think is the issue on google, and am very lost, and why I am posting haha.

Backstory: This is a church setting for livestream and atmosphere capabilities. The previous system was just track lighting for stage, and house lights where always on at 100. We just installed a moderate etc system with color source board, source fours, and Altman pars on a wireless system.

Ultimate Goals: I want to be able to properly dim the house lights, and Ultimately want to be able to control that through the ColorSource board. I want to be able to connect the house lights to one of my etc wireless units and control the house lights along with the rest of my stage setup.

Thank you in advance to anyone has anything they have to add and input to this conversation.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_4546.jpg
    IMG_4546.jpg
    508.3 KB · Views: 194
  • IMG_4547.jpg
    IMG_4547.jpg
    262.3 KB · Views: 190
You have a couple options. 1: Replace them all with DMX dimmable, purpose made house light fixtures (Most likely not an option) 2: Purchase an LED replacement lamp that is made to run on the dimmers you have (https://cantousa.com/retro-series-led-retrofit-kit/retro-classic/ but also very expensive... around $400 per lamp) 3: Replace the dimmers you have with something that may treat the electronics in the LED bulbs you have a little better. Typically that will be a reverse phase dimmer. The best that I've found if made by Doug Fleenor : http://www.dfd.com/dmx12dim.html The one 'gotcha' with this product is that each channel has a max of 100w output, so some rerouting may be required, depending on your system
 
Need Help. I am a newbie to lights and have learned a lot but have more to learn than I think I can haha. I am not a lighting guy, or tech guy, but I'm revamping everything because I know how important it is.

Problem:
House lights will not dim properly. They are LED disks screwed into a can. I have four bays, with 2 lines of lights in each bay. Each line has 5 lights. Total 10 lights total in 1 bay. Each bay runs together to one "Edison" plug. I plug those into a dj dimmer pack and run the dmx to a cheap Leviton n3008-00D. Currently I can only dim two bays, and very minimally. The other two bays are either all the way on or all the way off. I have confirmed they are dimmable lights. I have run through both manuals and exhausted the full capabilities of these two inexspensive units.

What I think: I think the issue is that these lights are the new LED lights made to "never die" and super cheap and all of that stuff. and its very low power being pulled. I feel like somewhere in this low cost system it doesn't have enough software to control such low settings. Like its controlling up to 256 on the dim switch, and I only need up to 20 for it to be smooth. Am I right or wrong? What do y'all think? what do I need to make it work? I can't find such a product to fix what I think is the issue on google, and am very lost, and why I am posting haha.

Backstory: This is a church setting for livestream and atmosphere capabilities. The previous system was just track lighting for stage, and house lights where always on at 100. We just installed a moderate etc system with color source board, source fours, and Altman pars on a wireless system.

Ultimate Goals: I want to be able to properly dim the house lights, and Ultimately want to be able to control that through the ColorSource board. I want to be able to connect the house lights to one of my etc wireless units and control the house lights along with the rest of my stage setup.

Thank you in advance to anyone has anything they have to add and input to this conversation.
@ChurchLightingNewb A low cost option you can try: Add a dummy load, a 25 or 40 Watt incandescent lamp for example, to the output of a dimmer (Be sure you don't exceed the dimmer's ratings).
IF you get lucky, add similar loads to every dimmer. May not make any difference but definitely an economical option to try.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
You have a couple options. 1: Replace them all with DMX dimmable, purpose made house light fixtures (Most likely not an option) 2: Purchase an LED replacement lamp that is made to run on the dimmers you have (https://cantousa.com/retro-series-led-retrofit-kit/retro-classic/ but also very expensive... around $400 per lamp) 3: Replace the dimmers you have with something that may treat the electronics in the LED bulbs you have a little better. Typically that will be a reverse phase dimmer. The best that I've found if made by Doug Fleenor : http://www.dfd.com/dmx12dim.html The one 'gotcha' with this product is that each channel has a max of 100w output, so some rerouting may be required, depending on your system
The ETC Foundry "Phase Adaptive" 600w dimmers would also be worth checking out, as they do forward and reverse phase dimming and a meant for architectural use.
 
Another possibility, given the quality of dimmer you have, is that the third channel is set to on/off, or possibly that the triac is fried.

I would meter the power going into the dimmer pack (just to be sure) -- preferably with a digital multimeter that allows you to log the voltage over a period of time -- and also meter the output of each dimmer channel. Another easy way to check the output is to plug a spare theatrical fixture into it and see how well it performs. Since you mention these are house lights, they may be hard-wired without spare outlets for each channel, but they make a variety of socket adapters that would serve your purpose.
 
Need Help. I am a newbie to lights and have learned a lot but have more to learn than I think I can haha. I am not a lighting guy, or tech guy, but I'm revamping everything because I know how important it is.

Problem:
House lights will not dim properly. They are LED disks screwed into a can. I have four bays, with 2 lines of lights in each bay. Each line has 5 lights. Total 10 lights total in 1 bay. Each bay runs together to one "Edison" plug. I plug those into a dj dimmer pack and run the dmx to a cheap Leviton n3008-00D. Currently I can only dim two bays, and very minimally. The other two bays are either all the way on or all the way off. I have confirmed they are dimmable lights. I have run through both manuals and exhausted the full capabilities of these two inexspensive units.

What I think: I think the issue is that these lights are the new LED lights made to "never die" and super cheap and all of that stuff. and its very low power being pulled. I feel like somewhere in this low cost system it doesn't have enough software to control such low settings. Like its controlling up to 256 on the dim switch, and I only need up to 20 for it to be smooth. Am I right or wrong? What do y'all think? what do I need to make it work? I can't find such a product to fix what I think is the issue on google, and am very lost, and why I am posting haha.

Backstory: This is a church setting for livestream and atmosphere capabilities. The previous system was just track lighting for stage, and house lights where always on at 100. We just installed a moderate etc system with color source board, source fours, and Altman pars on a wireless system.

Ultimate Goals: I want to be able to properly dim the house lights, and Ultimately want to be able to control that through the ColorSource board. I want to be able to connect the house lights to one of my etc wireless units and control the house lights along with the rest of my stage setup.

Thank you in advance to anyone has anything they have to add and input to this conversation.
@ChurchLightingNewb You join, then immediately SCREAM at us in BOLD. Have you tried a dummy load?
Edit #1: I wonder if / when he'll ever be back.
Edit #2: Screams RUDELY then disappears; his ignorance rating's on the r i s e.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
Last edited:
@ChurchLightingNewb You join, then immediately SCREAM at us in BOLD. Have you tried a dummy load?
Edit: I wonder if / when he'll ever be back.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
Maybe he is just a long way away from us so feels he needs to shout or he thinks since we work in noisy environments we are slightly deaf. Still no reason to deafen my eyesight.:p
 
The ETC Foundry "Phase Adaptive" 600w dimmers would also be worth checking out, as they do forward and reverse phase dimming and a meant for architectural use.

Seconded. Not only does the Foundry dimmer work reasonably well with a wide range of LED products, but it's more likely to be a code-compliant approach than what you're attempting now. Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but it sounds like you're going from hard-wired fixtures to a male connector that then plugs into a portable dimmer. This is not allowed per the NEC unless you have an appropriately sized circuit breaker between that male connector and the rest of the wiring to the fixtures. To preempt a common response: No, the fuse/breaker in the dimmer pack does not count. While these would normally have more than one circuit, this type of application falls under section 520.50 as a "Road Show Connection Panel".

But to hit the question more directly: dimming LEDs via line-voltage is really hard, so the vast majority of "dimmable" LED products do not actually perform that well--and very, very few of them approach the standards we usually expect for theatrical dimming. You need the right LED product with the right dimmers to have any chance of success. If you want better odds, then the best bet is to separate power and control using DMX or 0-10V fixtures, but even then you shouldn't believe everything you read in a spec sheet. Real-world testing is the only way to know for sure how something will perform.

For Foundry and other ETC products, testing information is posted here. It's kind of random because it's based on what people happen to send in for testing, so it doesn't cover every product ever made... but it's a good starting point.
 
Not that it matters, but it's Good News Christian Church in Wallingford, CT. Nothing on their website regarding their setup. https://www.goodnewscc.com/

Hope @ChurchLightingNewb comes back to engage before causing himself unnecessary extra work.
 
Fairly new to theatrical lighting, but worked for an electric utility for many years, several of which were spent working with customers upgrading to more efficient lighting equipment.

First bet (as stated) is to make sure the LED's you have can, in fact, be dimmed. Not only to solve your issue, but because the drivers in some non-dimmable LED lamps can overheat (IE fire hazard) when operated on a dimmer. Even LED's which are designed to dim have to be operated on a compatible dimmer.

Try the other suggestions provided.

Last, do your requirements include full-range dimming? Even dimmable LED lamps tend to not dim to less than 10-15% smoothly. They typically 'drop out' somewhere in that range when dimming - and when bringing them up, do nothing-nothing-nothing-oops, 20%. May not be a problem for your application, but something to be aware of if you are looking to gradually bring up the house lights for effect.

The DMX or 0-10V dimming options work well, but will require additional wiring to the fixtures, which may or may not be an issue for you.

Good luck,

Jay
 
While the previous posters have hit the high points for the OP:
1) be sure the retrofit can light pucks are in fact dimmable
2) be sure your "cheap DJ" dimming pack has all channels set to 'dim' and not 'nd' or 'switch'
3) if you really want fully controlled, smooth dimming must switch to constant power, DMX/DALI/0-10v control fixtures

I just wanted to add another .02 in that even the best line dimmable LED fixture really only works between 90 > 10 percent intensity (as in you don't really see the last 10% up and the driver loses functional power input in the last 10% so all you get is phosphor decay.) and while the fixture make look alright with the nice phosphor decay in a house-to-out scanario the same phosphors will not smooth out the abrupt dark to 10% smack your audience will get bringing the house up. Maybe not that bad after bright curtain call at the end of the show, but really shocking sneaking house up after a long slow dramatic fade to black at intermission. worse yet is that not all line dimming fixtures have the same thresholds so be prepared for one light here, a couple there kind of time delay on slow up fades.
 
While the previous posters have hit the high points for the OP:
1) be sure the retrofit can light pucks are in fact dimmable
2) be sure your "cheap DJ" dimming pack has all channels set to 'dim' and not 'nd' or 'switch'
3) if you really want fully controlled, smooth dimming must switch to constant power, DMX/DALI/0-10v control fixtures

I just wanted to add another .02 in that even the best line dimmable LED fixture really only works between 90 > 10 percent intensity (as in you don't really see the last 10% up and the driver loses functional power input in the last 10% so all you get is phosphor decay.) and while the fixture make look alright with the nice phosphor decay in a house-to-out scanario the same phosphors will not smooth out the abrupt dark to 10% smack your audience will get bringing the house up. Maybe not that bad after bright curtain call at the end of the show, but really shocking sneaking house up after a long slow dramatic fade to black at intermission. worse yet is that not all line dimming fixtures have the same thresholds so be prepared for one light here, a couple there kind of time delay on slow up fades.
@DELO72 Care to comment?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
I just wanted to add another .02 in that even the best line dimmable LED fixture really only works between 90 > 10 percent intensity

As much as I rail against line-voltage dimming of LEDs in general, I feel obligated to say there are a small number of products that do dim lower in a stable and predictable way. Lutron's A-Series drivers dim to 1% under the right conditions, for example. ETC's Source 4WRD is another really interesting exception because it will dim all the way to zero before the dimmer actually turns off. This means that with some clever programming you can get surprisingly good dimming performance by taking advantage of that range where the dimmer is putting out just barely enough power to keep the electronics in the fixture awake, but not enough to actually output light. It's tricky because it's a very narrow range that can be affected by things like load on the circuit and voltage drop. It's the sort of feature that only makes sense in the entertainment market because there's no practical way to take advantage of it with a regular wall dimmer.

There are other products as well, but they tend to be more specifically, "this exact model of lamp with this dimmer and these settings" whereas the A-Series is very consistent in performance across the entire product range (although you do still need a compatible dimmer with the right settings).
 
@ChurchLightingNewb You join, then immediately SCREAM at us in BOLD. Have you tried a dummy load?
Edit #1: I wonder if / when he'll ever be back.
Edit #2: Screams RUDELY then disappears; his ignorance rating's on the r i s e.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
HAHA so sorry. Im a writer, not used to this format though. I see it as formatting what is most important, not shouting haha. Thank you for your feedback though. Duly noted sir!
 
. . .

There are other products as well, but they tend to be more specifically, "this exact model of lamp with this dimmer and these settings" whereas the A-Series is very consistent in performance across the entire product range (although you do still need a compatible dimmer with the right settings).


I will agree with your point. My comments were not specified, but I was referring to the products I assumed a user such as the OP would have access to from big box or local electrical distributors who would be spec'ing products for homes or commercial offices, not so much the kind of installations where an installer would be familiar with Lutron, Crestron, ETC, Lumenpulse, etc. Apologies if it seemed I was unduly critiquing certain products.
 
@DELO72 Care to comment?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

This was absolutely true early on. But dimming technology has improved, and I've now seen many instances of dimmable LED fixtures (less so with individual light bulbs which have very cheap and small drivers) that dim VERY smoothly and do not appear to drop out or pop on anymore (to the eye that is. Perhaps a meter can detect it, but meters don't matter for squat as the audience isn't sitting on stage holding light meters- they are watching it with their eyes so perception is EVERYTHING.). Depends on both the fixture, it's dimmer, or the combination of the dimmer and driver used. For instance, the OSRAM KREIOS FLX dims VERY well on ETC Sensor (TM) technology, yet doesn't even work on the first ETC UNISON (TM) dimming technology. Something about the two are very different and one is incompatible with the driver in the fixture. So what we've learned is you can't make blanket statements as technology is constantly changing.

To the original question- Cheaper LED retrofits designed for General Lighting use are not designed to be "Perfectly dimmable". That industry does not require it. You need to buy a house light LED solution that is designed for the theatre industry where smooth and even dimming to black (and back up) is required. You are trying to put a square peg in a round hole. If you want perfect dimming- Replace the LED Pucks with more expensive Theatrical LED House Lights (fixtures & compatible dimmer) solutions, OR go back to Halogen lamps. Those are really your only two options.
 
Last edited:

Users who are viewing this thread

Back