# New Chavuet LED Fixtures

#### np18358

##### Active Member
I was just on Chavuets Website, and I noticed that they are in the process of manufacturing "Ovation" LED Ellipsodials Products » Ovation, LED Fresnels Products » Ovation, and LED CYC lights Products » Ovation. Does this mean that all of our manufacturers are going to come out with thier own line of LED Ellipsodials. I would not consider this as an option, because the main selling point of the Source Four LED, is the past Source Four History, and the LED color mixing, which can save fixtures, and provide new and intuitive colors. I am also wondering who they are trying to sell this to, because the vast majority of Ellipsodials Users, are in theatre, and the only products you might perhaps see in a theatre that they make, are the Arena 3 Hazers, or a few cheap movers, for low wattage flash and trash. Now, I could perhaps see them making CYC fixtures, because they do have a foot in the LED color industry, but then again, you don't see many djs with CYCs, and it looks like it can not be flown, which is a huge problem for the majority of us users, who mainly fly their CYC fixtures, then add groundrow. Also, I don't see the point in having a RGBWA cyc fixture, because when do you ever want a white cyc. If, you did, you just wouldn't light it!! Now for the fresnel it could be an option, for people who want to clear up dimmers, and save power, but again, without color mixing, I would just get a regular fresnel, or maybe an LED Par. In the end, would I consider a Chavuet product? Yes, I probably would, but only if you could convince me that it is better than another product. Here is a video they posted on their website:
So does anybody know any other information, like a release date, or have any opinions. (I am sure we will)

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#### Les

##### Well-Known Member
The Chauvet Colorado series have been a pretty successful line over the years, so I would consider a product like this if the price is right. One could also wager that maybe Chauvet is trying to move past it's "dj crap" perceptions (which it sounds like you have) much like what Elation is trying to do. So, maybe they are trying to appeal to theatrical applications. There are other users of ellipsoidals, like trade shows and ballroom-type events who would love a lower wattage LED fixture.

I saw a Source Four LED at Gemini the other day and I can say that it is nothing like the Source Four we have all come to love. No doubt it is a great fixture, but the plastic housing didn't feel any different than the Chauvet stuff (not that it's low quality - just don't expect it to take much of a beating). They have good customer service though, so there's that. Chauvet was hard to get on the phone last time I tried to reach them. When I did, the guy on the other end wasn't exceptionally friendly (though his attitude is his and not the company's).

I can think of a lot of reasons for a white cyc. Can you say "silhouette"?

Other manufacturers probably are going to come out with their own LED ellipsoidals. Robert Juliat has an LED profile which does much of the same thing as an ellipsoidal (but works differently), Coemar has the LEDko, and Altman surely isn't far behind given they've had some great successes with their Spectra series. I don't see it as an issue because I personally prefer having a choice. As much as I adore ETC, they gained their LED line by buying a company who already built great products without them.

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#### np18358

##### Active Member
I don't have any experience with colarados, but I have heard quite a few good things. I would consider the Ovation, but only after some other good reviews. My School is ordering a few dozen Source Four LEDs, so I don't think there is any reason for them to get these for a while, but I will certainly be interested to see how they do. I clearly wasn't thinking when I commented about the white CYC, I do silhouettes all the time, but I certainly don't see a reason to light a CYC white.

#### techieman33

##### Well-Known Member
They're just getting their feet in the door, I would bet an RGBAW fixture isn't far behind. It also looks like it uses source 4 lens tubes, which will help with getting them into performance spaces that already have tons of source 4's on hand. If they can match or beat the output of the source 4 LED at a lower price I would bet that it would be a very popular fixture. One place I see all of these different LED ellipsoidals is in touring. At least now when you go into another space you know pretty much what your going to get. Yeah one space may have source fours, another pacifics, and another 360q's, but they're all still relatively close to performance and color. With all of these LED fixtures with different chips who knows how far off your gel could be from venue to venue.

#### BillESC

##### Well-Known Member
I think the OP failed to consider how many wedding DJs there are in the US alone. Gobo projection is a hot money maker at weddings. Mobile Entertainers as they are often called face serious power issues at many venues and providing sound and lighting equal to the task on perhaps two 20 amp circuits that are probably shared is challenging. I'm certain Chauvet will move thousands of the Ovation units to their DJ market alone.

On an other note, I'm a bit unhappy that its' color temperature is listed at 3100 K and not 3200.

#### DavidNorth

##### ETC Rigging General Manager
Fight Leukemia
Departed Member
I saw a Source Four LED at Gemini the other day and I can say that it is nothing like the Source Four we have all come to love. No doubt it is a great fixture, but the plastic housing didn't feel any different than the Chauvet stuff (not that it's low quality - just don't expect it to take much of a beating). They have good customer service though, so there's that. Chauvet was hard to get on the phone last time I tried to reach them. When I did, the guy on the other end wasn't exceptionally friendly.

The Source Four LED fixture is made of cast aluminum, specifically to meet the rigors of daily use including touring. It would have been nice to make it out of plastic to reduce weight for truck shipment and pipe hanging, but ruggedness was a greater concern. There were 5 prototypes made of plastic [printed from a parts printer] and a few were out there for demos but those were surely early units not having all the features of the units shipping to customers.

As much as I adore ETC, they gained their LED line by buying a company who already built great products without them.

True, ETC did gain a foothold in the LED lighting market with the Selador purchase, but I can attest that the Source Four LED shares only the concept of the X7 system with Selador. Driver hardware, software, UI, power supply, optics, color choices, etc, are all new, and are designed and manufactured in Middleton, WI. ETC still makes Selador fixtures with ETC designed technology improvements.

The list of manufacturers buying other manufacturers or their products is very long in this industry [the same is true for dealers] and I'm not sure I see how that affects products or services. Just wanted to make sure that people had the facts.

David

#### techieman33

##### Well-Known Member
The Source Four LED fixture is made of cast aluminum, specifically to meet the rigors of daily use including touring. It would have been nice to make it out of plastic to reduce weight for truck shipment and pipe hanging, but ruggedness was a greater concern. There were 5 prototypes made of plastic [printed from a parts printer] and a few were out there for demos but those were surely early units not having all the features of the units shipping to customers.

True, ETC did gain a foothold in the LED lighting market with the Selador purchase, but I can attest that the Source Four LED shares only the concept of the X7 system with Selador. Driver hardware, software, UI, power supply, optics, color choices, etc, are all new, and are designed and manufactured in Middleton, WI. ETC still makes Selador fixtures with ETC designed technology improvements.

The list of manufacturers buying other manufacturers or their products is very long in this industry [the same is true for dealers] and I'm not sure I see how that affects products or services. Just wanted to make sure that people had the facts.

David

It's true in every industry, big fish buy the little fish to get the people, products, technology that they want. Just look at the computer industry there is a news story everyday of some company getting bought out by a bigger one.

#### JChenault

##### Well-Known Member
I saw the fixture at LDI and was intrigued.

This is first theatrical fixture I have seen that is using an LED source for white light. I am not a fan of RGBA. Or RGBAW for general use (faces) They just don't produce the same range of light frequencies you can get with an incandescent lamp and Gel. A white LED (may) give me the advantages of power , heat, and lamp life, but still give me a full spectrum to play with.

As to the point about multiple manufacturers making fixtures, I would say that this is the long term normal and that ETC's dominance has been a recent aberration. When I started in the business we had fixtures by Kliegl Bros., Century Lighting, Strand, Ariel Davis Manufacturing Company, Hub, Colortran, Altman, and more small companies I don't remember.
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#### techieman33

##### Well-Known Member
I saw the fixture at LDI and was intrigued.

This is first theatrical fixture I have seen that is using an LED source for white light. I am not a fan of RGBA. Or RGBAW for general use (faces) They just don't produce the same range of light frequencies you can get with an incandescent lamp and Gel. A white LED (may) give me the advantages of power , heat, and lamp life, but still give me a full spectrum to play with.

As to the point about multiple manufacturers making fixtures, I would say that this is the long term normal and that ETC's dominance has been a recent aberration when I started in the business we had fixtures by Kliegl, Century, Strand, Ariel Davis, Hub, Colortran, Altman, and more small companies I don't remember.

ETC's LED source 4 is available in just white. They have a tungsten unit, and a daylight unit. Just because it's white light doesn't mean your getting the full spectrum though, there are a lot of peaks and valleys over the spectrum with any LED. Just look at how different the gel that Lee is making for LED sources look compared to a gel for a tungsten source to end up with roughly the same color.

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#### gafftaper

##### Senior Team
Senior Team
Fight Leukemia
One could also wager that maybe Chauvet is trying to move past it's "dj crap" perceptions (which it sounds like you have) much like what Elation is trying to do. So, maybe they are trying to appeal to theatrical applications.

I would say this is exactly the point. Chauvet is working hard to re-position itself in the market. The booth made this pretty clear at LDI. While they did have a clearly marked DJ gear area, the main area was big and classy.

This is first theatrical fixture I have seen that is using an LED source for white light. I am not a fan of RGBA. Or RGBAW for general use (faces)
You apparently missed the Apollo booth. They have a nice full line of white LED fixtures in your choice of color temperatures. They are pretty competitively priced and look pretty good. Plus Seachanger now has a white LED source fixture combined with their classic dichroic color changing system. The guy at Seachanger said, The driving force in LED's is home and industrial use, not entertainment. Therefore the the vast majority of development money is being spent on brighter more accurate white light, not color LED. So it makes a lot of sense for companies to embrace white technology.

#### ejsandstrom

##### Member
My School is ordering a few dozen Source Four LEDs,

Any venue that can buy "a few dozen" S4LEDs is not the market for Chauvet. Anybody with that kind of money does not care about a lower cost fixture. They want something that is going to work, everytime.

I think the OP failed to consider how many wedding DJs there are in the US alone. Gobo projection is a hot money maker at weddings. Mobile Entertainers as they are often called face serious power issues at many venues and providing sound and lighting equal to the task on perhaps two 20 amp circuits that are probably shared is challenging. I'm certain Chauvet will move thousands of the Ovation units to their DJ market alone.

You're getting gouged by your supplier. The MAP on an S4 LED is $2,295 USD. #### techieman33 ##### Well-Known Member I dont think Chauvet will get there. Its not their market. I think their market will be the in-betweeners. The smaller schools, the medium size churches ( 100 -2500ppl) and some smaller venues and night clubs. This is where I fall in, as a mid sized church in a lower middle class area. We need to be able to light the stage well, but at ~$5k for a S4LED we would never be able to afford them. Now a light that is ~$1000, sacrifices some output, and may only last a year or two, that is a possibility. It's not their market yet, but things change. 5 years ago you would get laughed at if you had Chauvet LED pars in your rig, now COLORado's are in tons of big rigs. If they're making a good product that works people will buy it. Also the source 4 LED lists for about$2300, not $5000. #### Les ##### Well-Known Member The Source Four LED fixture is made of cast aluminum, specifically to meet the rigors of daily use including touring. It would have been nice to make it out of plastic to reduce weight for truck shipment and pipe hanging, but ruggedness was a greater concern. There were 5 prototypes made of plastic [printed from a parts printer] and a few were out there for demos but those were surely early units not having all the features of the units shipping to customers. True, ETC did gain a foothold in the LED lighting market with the Selador purchase, but I can attest that the Source Four LED shares only the concept of the X7 system with Selador. Driver hardware, software, UI, power supply, optics, color choices, etc, are all new, and are designed and manufactured in Middleton, WI. ETC still makes Selador fixtures with ETC designed technology improvements. The list of manufacturers buying other manufacturers or their products is very long in this industry [the same is true for dealers] and I'm not sure I see how that affects products or services. Just wanted to make sure that people had the facts. David Busted. I hope it didn't come across too badly that I was mitigating ETC's R&D, quality, etc. In the end, I was just trying to drive the point home for the OP that we should all respect companies that put their neck out there in product development; and regardless of status or reputation, everyone has to start somewhere. Even the greats like ETC have a hard time "hitting the ground running" which is why I mentioned the Selador buyout. Perhaps I saw one of the early demos at Gemini and that gave my a false first impression. Sometimes ya can't even believe what you do see! I was taken aback seeing a plastic fixture, but I'm glad that is not the case! #### len ##### Well-Known Member 90% of the mobile DJs out there dont have$1000 in their entire lighting rig. They have a 4 channel dimmer with 4 cans and a mirror ball. Why is the Matrix B52 1000 system so popular with MDJ's? Because its cheap and it does the job, however poorly. Sure there will be a few big OP's out there that will buy them, but not many.

No longer the case in many areas. Some have a large number of fixtures. Some are moving into the event lighting business (uplights, pinspots, etc.). Some have figured out they don't have to do everything in house, they can sub-contract it from somewhere.

To the original point, Chauvet isn't the first. ETC isn't the first to offer this. I remember seeing an LED profile unit with a gobo slot several years ago. I can't remember the brand, but it was being demo-ed at Chicago Spotlight. I don't remember what the LED source was but I do remember it having the ability to change color temperature very easily, and I THINK it had full color mixing. It was pretty impressive, but about $2,500 +/- back then. In my opinion, the thing is that everyone is trying to make a new product be a straight replacement for old. It's not the way to think about it. Moving mirror lights came out, but we didn't use them the same way we used a par can rig. Then moving head, and the programming needs to be different because the movement isn't typically as fast. Now we have the Sharpy and we create different looks than we would a wide beam look like a Mac 2K. And there's video walls, and moving video projectors, and the whole gamut. Find the look you want, then get the right tool for the job. Or adapt what you do to the technology you have, but don't try to do both. Technology should serve man, not the other way around. #### PolishGuy ##### Member Called a dealer today and the 165WW is$1819.99 and the 190WW is $2099.99. No pricing on cyc lights yet. Does that sound right? #### Kelite ##### Well-Known Member Premium Member Thank you David, We were fortunate to demo the Source Four LED with the new Apollo PrintScenic plastic gobos, and the match was incredible. Our experience with Apollo products being used with ETC fixtures of all types has been stellar. Thank you for consistently designing and producing quality lighting equipment. #### BillESC ##### Well-Known Member 90% of the mobile DJs out there dont have$1000 in their entire lighting rig. They have a 4 channel dimmer with 4 cans and a mirror ball. Why is the Matrix B52 1000 system so popular with MDJ's? Because its cheap and it does the job, however poorly. Sure there will be a few big OP's out there that will buy them, but not many.

Sir, you are sadly mistaken. I have DJ clients that routinely drop one, two or five grand on lighting up-grades. I also have clients buying EV and KV2 speaker systems.

Mobile Beat magazine an industry publication sponcers two conventions every year, one in Las Vegas and the other in Atlantic City.

#### DuckJordan

I have to agree with bill, DJ's around here are sitting on multiple rigs with $4-6k of equipment if not more. I know a popular company has a set of mac 250's with wireless dongles on top of truss stands. Being in the midwest not as much money to float around here I have a feeling its fairly common for DJ's to have these kinds of rigs. #### Ford ##### Sr Product Manager, Chauvet Professional Hi team, Here are a few clarifications... WARNING, LONG POST, which some may find commercial in nature. Yup, these are targeted to both Theatres, HOWs, and professional rental houses. The Prices a I saw quoted above were much higher than the expected "street price". I would expect that you will see the elipsoidal complete with a high effeciency lens advertised for under$1500. The Fresnel will be a couple of hundred less than the Leko.

The fixtures were developed around the optical engine that we developed for the QSpot 360 & 460. When we first developed this optical system, it was to find a way of getting far more light using less power, and generating less heat, using lower power LEDs. For instance, the QSpot 360 has 3 10 watt LEDs, but outputs far more light than a unit with a single 60W LED, And... we discovered that this optical system had some other incredible advantages.

Firstly, the bottom-end dimming on these fixtures is quite nice (if I do say so myself). Because we use low power emitters, and because of the way that we drive them, we are able to acheive incredible control over the bottom of the dimming curve. You can use the built in curves (similar to what is in the COLORado fixtures), or (as I would do), you can put them in 16-bit dimming mode, and have 2 channel dimmer control (the same way you have fine Pan and Tilt on a moving head). This will allow you to do a 10 second ghost in to 5% from blackout, and not see the fixtures "Pop-on" as you would with any of the fixtures out there using high power LEDs. This, to me, is the key to developing a fixture for theatrical purposes. If it cannot do this, it's not the right fixture for this application...Plus, it's really cool, and has to be seen to be appreciated.

Secondly, when I (as a manufacturer) am ordering LEDs for a product, the way that I do so is by specifying a "Bin". With our Pro products, we always specify the tightest binning that we can. The difference allowed in this tight Bin is called a MacAdams Ellipse. A MacAdams Ellipse is (roughly...look it up if you want a more detailed explanation) defined as an area on the color chart where an average shmoe cannot tell the difference between the color of light at one end or the other. My issue is that neither I, nor my target constituency (Lighting Designers) are average shmoes when it comes to discerning the color of light. In fact, as LDs, the color of light is far more important to us, than it is to the average shmoe. So, consistency in color is key. When using multiple small emitters, you help to alleviate this issue. When using 16 or 19 leds from the same Bin, you end up essentially averaging the color variance. For instance, draw a circle on a piece of paper. Now put a dot in that circle. Now do the same thing again next to it. If your 2 dots are in different area of the circle, then (if these were LEDs in a fixture) you may have 2 fixtures that can look different. Now... put 19 dots in a random pattern in each circle. look at the average distributuion, and you will see that it is much more uniform. These 2 fixtures will look much more consistent. This also means that when I have a unit manufactured today, and another manufactured in 9 months, there is far better consistency between units than in fixtures that use a single LED as a source.

Thirdly, this is completely scalable. If I want a larger amount of light, I increase the LEDs (within certain geometric parameters). If I want a lower power version, I decrease the number of LEDs...
For instance, we have used this optical design in units with 3, 7, 16, and 19 LEDs (so far).

Fourthy (is that a word?) we have the ability to make a much more even field, and can also control the "Hotspot" very well. This means that the QSpots can be almost perfectly flat, while the Eliposidal has a slight peak (so that you can use them in systems, where a perfectly flat field would be a HUGE disadvantage). When you look at units which use a single high power LED source, you are much more likely to see inconsistencies in the actual LED, as the emitter surface is large, and optically you want to get as close as possible to actually imaging the LED to get the most intensity out of it. This means that you can see every imperfection...

As to why 3100k... there are FELs and HPLs, BTNs, BTRs, NSPs MFLs, and half a dozen other "theatrical" lamps from various manufacturers that have typical color temperatures that vary drastically between 2800k, and 3400k. most are either 3000k, or 3200k. I picked the center of the range. Arbitrary?? Maybe, but if you think that all of your incandescent fixtures are of the same color temperature... then I challenge you to take a half dozen units of various types, and with various ages, and line them up to compare colors. You will find that they vary considerably depending on lamp type, and age. If you are going to say that a 100degree kelvin difference in native color temperature is enough to disqualify a fixture from contention, than I am extremely curious as to what different fixtures are in your rig, and wonder if you change lthe lamps after every show to maintain the color temp.

As to why we have not gone with a full color version yet... Simply because we optimized this particular optical design for mixing white LEDs. When I have an optical system that is properly optimized for mixing full color, we will launch those fixtures, as well. But not until we have it right.

The Cyc is still under development, so there is no firm pricing on this yet.
I am still massaging the color mix. We have gotten a huge amount of feedback from some of our favorite LDs, and I'm holding the unit until we have it right.
As to why you would want white in the Cyc light...
Although it is unusual for someone to light a CYC with only white light, white is very valuable for mixing with other olors (let the symantic arguments begin). Using White allows you to change the shade of the color you're using. So... if you have only RED in the CYC, you may have a very nice primary red...but if you want to make the red less intense, you may want to add white, so the overall level of the Cyc is high (for contrast against a dark stage, for instance), but the color is not as intense.

I hope this was informative without being too much of an info-mercial.

BTW, I note that you are from South Florida. Perhaps you would like to come see our facilities sometime?
Please PM me, and I will try to arrange it.