New HPL 575w

...Have a old TD mentor that won't buy any Thorn/GE based on his experiences initially like 20 years ago with the HX-600 lamp from them. For him, anything from them is a no sell. ...
Technicians are often brand loyal and even more brand dis-loyal. I won't use a certain lightboard today because an early version failed me. I won't look at another because it was introduced before it was ready.

My college TD hated Westinghouse lamps, thus I never bought Westinghouse lamps, and therefore they stopped making stage/studio lamps.
 
I was going to say, how I get the ear of company presidents? ;) I wish I could tell stories of what's going on at my site (especially on days like today), but I understand the need to watch what I say. As a public employee I can be disciplined or fired for what I post, which is why I don't sign with my real name or where I work, as much as I would love to make public some of the things going on and the ways in which a particular lighting company is giving me the run around. On this forum and others I have to remember to keep anonymous, which takes the fun out of sharing this resource with some of my peers or students.

Once wrote a snail mail letter (before the internet) to Altman about a show I was doing that due to some very problematic parts supply issues to my 3.5Q Lekos meant I couldn’t produce as good of majic.

Later and after receiving that letter and one can imagine how it is to catch a college person on one’s dorm room phone direct, I got a call from Robert Altman himself. He personally apologized to some college punk I was in attempting to set the world on fire thru my great design, absolutely needed these parts I didn’t get in time or even yet before the call. Explained about the problems his company was undergoing with introducing the new HX-600 lamp at the time a new development that’s now legendary lamp history, and with bringing to market their own new fixture in time for USITT I believe it was.

Snail mail and direct contact proven over the years often and always the best way to address problems for me some college kid in competing with someone in the same class that had a laser to tinker with I got a pre-market HX-600 lamp, some extra parts and the parts requested immediately following the personal apology and expiation of what they were up to as a company and forming up of what is now fourth generation Leko technology personally. Talked a long time on the subject and I will always remember that personal time with someone that has made history in the industry as a college punk as it were talking with him.

Professionally na, been on quite a few dart board centers, but personally it did on the personal level rise to a level that has not been followed - this even beyond a personal call from an exec at ETC following a post under my anonymous name the next morning offering to solve the problem or at least help to study it. More scary for me on a professional level that what I wrote as me in my off time at the time caught up with work in an initial sense and I got a phone call the next morning.

Years in the industry as a buyer and I separate more and more company from sales person. Often I get a good sales person and they move up in the chain of command and pass my account down to a selected next sales person that either does great - often with me or what am yo stupid? Those sales people that move up or on than later contact me at their new company or let me know that if there is a problem, contact them and they will help. Onto for instance my third or fourth rep at Altman now over the years. Two moved onto L&E and they are great sales people. To them as sales people taking care of the customer extra sales where possible just as in the past with me at times shifting sales to a sales person over brand if felt that sales person could make it happen. On the other hand, still have overall accounts and training if necessary with the next sales person. Takes time at times with the next sales person but they learn what you need and have to have and they either go away or improve when new. This or excell.

Recently I got personal sales people thru Allied Electronics and Newark. Good to have in that the last set of terminator resistors I bought off the internet didn’t seem to be what I was looking for and a day later I ordered and saved money on what I needed after personal recommendation.

Should a sales person move on in the industry I’ll still stick with the main company as wished and concept, just once the sales person also lands elsewhere also consider them as sales person at a new source for other stuff and choices.

Much like tech people, a sales person is at times one to follow. Many good ones out there and after a time they might stop reping a specific company and go free lance for rep instead for reping many. Alternate route not much known in the industry if one finds oneself a sales person that one can also go free lance rep in the future as a career choice.

On the other hand, in direct response.... watch what one might say... no perhaps in no small world big brother remembering you type of way especially before well established in the industry. Still always best to be safe, sleep on it overnight if potentially very meaningful or telling than decide after a full nights rest if fair and un-balanced in presentation and fact. After that given science... that’s fact presented and not subjected as long as that’s what it is.

In art, that’s subjective and fair and needed often in the most opinion one can give. Personal opinion and review as that is also great stuff and jumping off point to discussion as long as recognized if small amount reviewed against and small sampling that the parameters of debate.

Small world shouldn’t on the other hand stifle opinion or debate. If you feel strongly and or want to, that’s part of pushing the limits and generating discussion such debate and challenge. Often that passion for art and or discussion is what pushes further knowledge. On the other hand popooing say a lot number of lamps by a brand when that’s all one has experience with as opposed to last year that seemed to last better is discussion that should be a careful one about based on lots of factors in making reality of otherwise subjective opinion.

Hope it helps in a difficult concept to otherwise convey in not stifle creativity or discussion about anything but also hoping that when its presented that it is fair and unbiased in a real sense as opposed to situational reporting about it given strong but unformed opinion.

Lots to work on for all given the weight of such a concept but still if concept able to do it and understood if needing work on it.

Long after you, I and others are gone such as we type accurate or having changed in theory will be for future generations fodder for a college term paper say good and or bad as if discussion about blacks/whites to pull up. Basic sort of phylosophy in a way as it were beyond the above.
 
/offtopic I believe the last time I was at PSW the official rule there is that you must have an actual name as your username if you want to make any posts.

I'm the exception to that in being well established as Ship in the industry as my own person including that website that I also go way back with.
Would you rather listen to say a Ship and others personally or who they work for in potentially that adding weight to what they say? This also assuming what they migth say if official is approved of in that I don't own the company where I work, heck, I'm lucky if considered middle management. Would I go in saying what I do were it not after work I'm not the employee persay under an official name up for corporate approval in statement?
 
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I'm interested that being taken care of was a negative experience.....;)

Ahh perhaps that didn't come out right.. the negative experience was before you guys took good care of me. I've told the story on CB in detail (including the part about how happy I am now) and I was trying to make a different point here so I didn't want to go into the details again.

I believe you were making a little joke here Rob... but I think it also reinforces the point I was making about the importance of the words we use here about products... and again, I'm nobody in particular. Just a guy who wastes too much time on CB. Imagine if Ship started bashing a particular brand of lamp publicly.


I was going to say, how I get the ear of company presidents? ;) I wish I could tell stories of what's going on at my site (especially on days like today), but I understand the need to watch what I say. As a public employee I can be disciplined or fired for what I post, which is why I don't sign with my real name or where I work, as much as I would love to make public some of the things going on and the ways in which a particular lighting company is giving me the run around. On this forum and others I have to remember to keep anonymous, which takes the fun out of sharing this resource with some of my peers or students.

I posted my college identity for a while but decided it was less hassle to be vague. If you want to know who I am, I'll tell you. But anonymity allows me to express my opinions without a constant disclosure statement. I see no problem with telling my friends and students where to find me... I don't say anything here I wouldn't say in real life... but it just seems safer somehow to not say exactly who I am.
 
There are degrees of contact with a company though. A faulty product or two I can get past, or a bad sales rep, but say, getting yelled at in public by the president of an audio installation company who refuses to own up to their own mistakes is another story. Especially if said president threatens if you if you ever say anything bad about his company, overcharges by 60% for equipment (might have actually used list price?), and installs a system that repeatedly leads to public embarrassment for myself and my theater. For the record, we built our own portable system that clocked in around $3k, and sounds better and performs better than his $175k system.

I have had similar problems with our lighting company, who both manufactures and does some installation. They have a small reputation for sweet talking schools, and I believe they are the ones to blame for convincing district officials not to use the pre-spec'd ETC/Barbizon install. The equipment is junky, fails on about a monthly basis requiring direct service, and they pulled a fast one with the price of their consoles, swapping a $35kish board for a $10kish board in exchange for cheap equipment. It will all be out of warranty soon too, which makes me wonder what happens the next time it fails. I might be extra cranky at the moment - I have a very public event in my theater Monday, and as of right now I can't even turn on room lights (part of the same system). They might get a rep out to us this week, but I have a feeling I'm going to be rigging my portable Leprechaun dimmers this Sunday, if I can find a safe source of power and at least get the room lights working.

This is all over the course of three years. Because I am 'just a teacher' everyone involved knows more than I do, despite that silly degree in theater and some years of experience. The only people from either company who listen to me are the low guys on the totem pole, their technicians, who are all regular working guys. By comparison, the dealer I work with locally always treats me like a major customer, even though I spend little each year. Great repair service, and good for a chat when I need to talk to someone in the industry, since students aren't usually informed about the latest and greatest toys. Anyone who asks me locally where to find equipment gets sent to them.

I have a feeling this will all end up in very public litigation soon, since we have some increasingly ticked off parents becoming involved. While I agree with everything that has been said in this thread - no really - at present I make sure people locally know about the sound company and the comments made by their president.
 
Sayen, this kind of thing happens a lot. It's so critical to have someone with authority on a project who is watching those specs like a hawk. It's painful to be involved in the project but not given the authority to say no to the dealers when they try to cut costs. I was not given that authority for the first half of my theater's construction and there are a lot of painful little things I've spent the last year trying to get right. During the last year I have been given that authority and it's been great because I've been able to fight for a lot of great things and now have a really well equipped theater.
 
Reminds me of the time the then president of Kliegl Brothers (defunct companies are exempt from the bashing rule, correct?) flew a bunch of nuns to NYC, wined and dined them, and sold them a Performance® board, dimmers and fixtures, for their All-Girl High School's Recital Hall! What could have been done for $5,000 became $250,000, and the system was too advanced/complicated for anyone to use. They ended up running lights via the "Panic" wall-panels, and never touched the console.
 
I'm the exception to that in being well established as Ship in the industry as my own person including that website that I also go way back with.
Would you rather listen to say a Ship and others personally or who they work for in potentially that adding weight to what they say? This also assuming what they migth say if official is approved of in that I don't own the company where I work, heck, I'm lucky if considered middle management. Would I go in saying what I do were it not after work I'm not the employee persay under an official name up for corporate approval in statement?


That's very different though than §0µrç€4R0çk§, which I'm positive is what the rule is specifically aimed at avoiding.

I'm working on an install right now, and we had some communication issues between our system installer/supplier and our electricians. The work both groups do is awesome, it's getting there without having to try excessively hard to get the system installer to talk to the electrician about what needs to be done. I finally got to the point where I tore the installer a new one, and the company president has treated us like gold since. I felt guilty and had to tell him that as upset as I was that their quote had not included a what became a surprise price tag of $____.__, I wasn't about to turn around at my other places of work, or here, or anywhere else for that matter, and rip on them publicly. Now I'll still keep that in mind when making future business decisions, and if someone is asking me what I think on that specific company, I'll advertise them as, "You'll be happy with the final product, but maybe not the efforts it may take to get there." I think that's because they're a small-er company, but regional nonetheless, and the problem is based more so around the project manager's ability to respond to emails and phone calls.

That said, they have really come through since, giving us great trade-in prices on lots of old junk of ours that I would actually pay someone to simply get out of my sight with the guarantee I'll never see it again. The company president swung by last week to throw some C-clamps our way because the trussing they put had a far smaller pipe than the Mega-Clamps would grip on to. I even made sure to tell him it would be another month of renovations before I could hang lights and it wasn't at all a time-sensitive issue.

I think the problem that people have, and I'm just as guilty of this at times as anyone else is, is that until we train ourselves to do better, we are much more likely to list off a rant with all of our complaints about a company, than we are to additionally list of the things they did well. There's something to be said for a company that maybe starts the project off on the wrong foot, but having found out that you're not particularly happy with their work, become determined to go the extra mile to make sure when everything is said and done, you are happy.

To cover the additional, surprise price tag of $460 worth of new DMX receptacles, I originally told them to drop 2 S4's from my order, then tell me what was left, which amounted to about $100 give or take, and then I told them what I would purchase with that leftover money in the budget. About three weeks later the palette of S4's shows up, as well as everything else I ordered, and I'm caught off guard noticing that they decided to cover the price themselves, and keep the S4's on my order I had told them to drop, plus they kept the equipment I wanted to cover with that $100.

Overall, the key to properly reviewing a company is to be objective, not only with what they did poorly, but also with what they did well.
 
That's about the first time I have ever read such a well thought and unique end result thought of glass half full of dealing with suppliers, well done and thanks. Very refreshing.

And also frequently when reasonable with reasonable people such negotiations go really well in getting back to what you origionally asked for - this often inspite of later changes that often jack up the price but might also have been covered in the profit margin.
 

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