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New Install

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by thelightguy87, Dec 28, 2007.

  1. thelightguy87

    thelightguy87 Active Member

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    So one of my community theaters is moving to a new building, and going to buy some new equipment. This means I'm the one that gets to shop.
    My first question, knowing I have a very small budget, small enough they didn't give me a range, they just said keep it affordable, and I don't know what that means. But I'm looking for a small dimmer. Either Dimmer packs or Dimmer Rack. I think 12ch would do. Now considering we are going from 1000W hardware dimmers on a 2x4 framed board, this is a big improvement. Our need is to be able to put 3 to 4 500W fresnels on each channel, if possible. but with a 2.4kw dimmer we should be alright. I'm not familiar with dimmer racks that are less than 24ch and are going to be in the 1000$ to 2000$ range max.
    My first thought is to look at leprecon, as they have 6ch packs but i think they are only 1200W What kind of power do we need in order to power a small rack of say 12 2.4kw dimmers and we are looking to fill most of them up? We are having an electrician come out and run multiple circuits around the room, and through the ceiling. Basically this is a recreation room that is being turned into a small theater. Which is a joke cuz they rent it out to sports and dance classes and other groups and having lights on the 10ft ceiling is not the best idea. But thats beyond my say on the project.
    Next question is control. I'd like at least 24 channels and be able to run cues. Any ideas of a small console that is again under 2000$?
    We are currently brainstorming for this project, so if i can get any ideas and bring them to park district board for budget approval that'd be great. I don't really know where to start for low end, but decent consoles. I use computer software to run lights for my concerts, or when available an old ETC Insight from my high school...my favorite console ever...but anyways, I'm just looking for stuff to put my eyes on. Somewhere to start.
    Thanks
    Mike
     
  2. gafftapegreenia

    gafftapegreenia CBMod CB Mods

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    This board is pretty much the standard for two scene boards.

    Also, you should consider others things as well. Do you need more instruments? More efficient lamps? Cable? Gel? Gobos?
     
  3. thelightguy87

    thelightguy87 Active Member

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    We have fixtures at the moment, possibly getting LED par64s for some toplight, and we are going to need cable, but we are going to get as much through the electrician as possible, that is, get tails run to most possible positions. I actually used to own that board, it got damaged in storage and now doesn't work and i moved to using software, but thats also only 12 ch. I'm looking for 24 possible channels of control, cuz if i get 4 LEDpar 64s patch them together thats 4 channels, then a 12 circuit dimmer, thats 16 channels, then I plan on using my personal 4ch dimmer packs for practicals and such where the main rack isn't accessable, i have 4 so thats another possible 16 dimmers. there only 600W so not the most useful for main lighting system. so im looking at 32 to 40 possible control channels needed, but minimized when patched. So I figure 24 should be enough. But other than that I do like the LP 600 since it can run cues too. I've become very happy with most leprecon consoles.

    Anyone ever use a lightronics dimmer rack before? I'm looking at an 8 2400w circuit dimmer rack for about 1400. I don't have anything else yet to decide if thats reasonable, but i'd much rather go with a strand, leprecon or etc dimmer rack
     
  4. gafftaper

    gafftaper Senior Team Senior Team Fight Leukemia

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    There have been several discussions that get rather hot, rather quick about which brand is the best in the budget price range. Do some searching... brands like Leprachaun, NSI, EDI, Dove, Lightronics... all have their fans and haters around here. I suggest you go to your local dealer and see who they carry and what their package would be. If you don't have a relationship with a local dealer send a private message to C.B.'s own BILLESC or contact one of the big national dealers like Barbizon and BMI. Each dealer will have their own house version of essentially the same product... get some quotes then compare features.

    Also don't forget that both ETC and Strand do make fairly low end basic consoles. They might cost more than the other low end consoles but will probably be better choices in the long run.

    Finally, don't forget to look at computer based control systems.
     
  5. thelightguy87

    thelightguy87 Active Member

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    Alright, I'll give Grand Stage a call after new years and see what they can do for me. I am familiar with ETCs Smartfade, and to be honest, i don't like it. I haven't looked into a strand console, but I'm currently using Enttec Lightfactory with a 36ch out license. So in doubt i'll use that, but thats not permeneant to the space, and they would much rather prefer a console. Anyone know of a site that can give me prices for items? I've been looking at ETC, Strand, Leprecon and Lightronics websites for a while reading about the dimmer racks but none of them say anything about price. And the main resellers around, like Grand Stage, don't have prices online either. But I think based on the equipment I've worked with, I'm going to try to get either an ETC portable rack or a Strand CD80 Portable rack. Perticularly in the 12-24 circuit range.
     
  6. Charc

    Charc Well-Known Member

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    *Leprecon. Not to be picky Gaff.

    The LP-612 and more importantly LP-624 would be solid options. If you can get a memory console for low-cost, used, that'd be a better option, so hunt around. Lastly, running lights from a computer is always a viable option.
     
  7. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    I love the ETC Vision above the two scene preset with independent modes, but I’m a bit old school it would seem. This given by now most Vision light boards have corrupt memories by now and won’t work out well. Still if you could get some 1990's computer light board that still works as designed, it would have almost unlimited amounts of control channels and programming available to it sufficient to design and run a show with. Light Pallet III’s etc. not modern but did lots of stuff for it’s generation.

    Were it me, I would go for the lower wattage dimmers - 1.2Kw even 600w per channel in gaining more control channels/dimmers. Smaller spaces etc. the more control you have the easier your job. Can always soft patch dimmers to control channels but where limited 2.4Kw dimmers go for their price, you cannot do the reverse. This soft patch concept includes if necessary assigning two dimmer packs to the same say DMX or Microplex control channels in making them as if the same dimmer pack. DMX control is preferred of course.

    24 channels might be a bit limited for your grand scheme of things, at least get a board with memory backup that allows for soft patch and or cues programmed into it, this in addition to if two scene preset the 24x channels. 24x channels can be very limiting to a design assuming you don’t re-patch at some point during the show. At very least as per my past old TTI board, hopefully you will have the option to turn control channels into independent or master mode so as to control certain dimmers independent of the X/Y two scene preset. Helps a lot - as if a second light board at times.

    NSI is a good economical brand of light board and dimmer. LightTronics as a brand has been around for a while now also in taking NSI’s place for a newer company that’s cheap but not really yet known if it will be dependable or not given its price. NSI did work out as decent, the newer brand, don’t know though they do sell lots to small theaters. While both are not ETC or Leprechaun persay, they do seem stand up to use well.

    For light fixtures, remember to keep them small and wide angle. Law of squares says that given your throw distance, you don’t need as much wattage potential, plan for this.

    As a concept and before you submit any recommendations, design a show in that space. As if back in school, design on paper a show that perhaps will be an above average lighting show your company could potentially put on in this space before you acquire it. Do all the paperwork and design to see what you really need, than add at least 25% to that so as to see where you now are in needs for the new space. Once you note dimmer channels, needing more fixtures even if lower wattage to provide an even wash etc. much less given more small gear with different colors from the same position etc. it might become a factor for the overall plan for what you need.

    Assuming you already have some amount of light fixtures and cable, only add say 25% more to the budget to get more above the new dimmer/light board needs. Than of course pre-plan to need more immediately.

     
  8. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    You have a 10' ceiling as stated.. PAR 64 fixtures - no matter LED or filament will be a bit out of scale for the space. This much less won’t top light will only front wash at best. Color Blast would possibly work better if thinking LED, so would PixelPup if you frosted them.

    Stick to the PAR 46 and smaller type fixture, at most a Colemar PAR 56 LED or wait, there is a hoast of PAR 36 LED lamps TBA to the market or available now.

    Still now that Color Kinetics has introduced a more rugged stage version of their popular Color Blast fixture which is a decent output wash light but designed for architectural settings..., expect that the older but still the same models of the Color Blast will be coming up more and more economical on the used gear market in the near future. Might wait around for such things - this assuming you have the DMX control channel ability to control them - also meaning a computerized light board or one heck of a two scene preset but in still limitation to it in also doing conventionals.

    Don’t plan on your own personal gear for outfitting the theater. Or put it more wisely, never plan on your own gear to supplement the theater’s gear. Your 4 channel dimmer packs might help you and the theater out in growth or specials at times but the theater should provide sufficient equipment for its newfound needs. They should either buy them from you at market value so you can buy more, or plan to get more dimmers so they can do what you already are helping them get done.

    Sounds to me if doing LED control channels and conventional channels that you already need a computer light board of some sort, or at very least should not solve your problems with just answering what you know you need without leaving room for growth. That would leave you in a short amount of time with a controller that becomes limited again in its ability as opposed to able to compensate and grow with the theater as it grows. 32 channels at the very least if not 48 and or a computer or semi-computer light board.

    Also again with the 2,4Kw dimmer rack, I would say if possible go with a 16x1.2Kw dimmer rack for your use over that of a 8x2.4Kw dimmer rack. More control and if necessary again it could become a 2.4Kw rack by way of same DMX assignment.

    Flexibilty and growth are something to remember and really plan for in figuring out what to buy even on a limited budget.

     
  9. thelightguy87

    thelightguy87 Active Member

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    Thanks, I'll get working on that, perhaps an early design for the first show in the new space.

    Our current inventory is
    8 500W altman 6in fresnels
    1 750W Strand SL 19 degree
    1 750W Strand SL 26 degree

    no light board, no dimmers, bunch of extension cable that won't be used for the new installation.

    However, since I am the LD for this theater, I would bring in my 120W par 38's for wash reinforcement. I have 16 that I would bring, so wash wise, i think im set, and the pars would run off of my 4 600w per channel dimmer packs.

    From doing a little bit of research tonight, what I have found in the 2.4kw range is the Lightronics RD-122 rack mountable dimmer pack. it seems like it would meet our needs.

    Although I agree with multiple smaller dimmers, the head of the theater group prefers we 2fer/3fer lights to a circuit. But again, I don't agree with that. Maybe if I go to him with the prices of each option he'll change his mind. However, 1200w dimmers are well over double the price of 600W and comparable to 2400w dimmer packs, so if you have 750w lekos isn't it worth getting the larger dimmer. that way you have the option to 2fer if you really needed to.
     
  10. thelightguy87

    thelightguy87 Active Member

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    I used the par 36 LED lamps, but they definetely don't work well in a dimmer. I thought for the top light 4 of the LED par 64's I could keep them dim if i had to, but I want a very large wash from them, being that i'm so close. The height of the pars would be about 12ft, but thats still not much help. I'm still looking around for control, I don't want to get a 2 scene board because i'm so set on programming cues. my highschool, has in storage their very old ETC Insight and Expression consoles. I'm going to talk to them about possibly selling it or donating it to our theater, it helps the the head of our theater is the TD at the school...and most of our tech crew comes from that school...so i think i might be ok with control if i get that. I'll rethink the LED par 64's like you said, they are just too big. Do they have Par 46's in LED RGB mixing? link? and preferably not amdj. although in this height the amdj units might look alright. I'm gonna do what you said about designing on paper and see what i'd need. I only lean towards LED cuz that seems to be the only economical colormixing at the moment, as we wouldn't be able to get color scrollers or the CMY insert for lekos...can't think of the name of it. Color blast are pretty pricy, and even if we waited, we wouldn't be able to spend even 200+ on each unit. As I need to keep this install as cheap as possible. Since we have no shows this year, due to moving into the new space.

    Thanks for the ideas

    Mike
     
  11. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    By the way, Lightronics is while fairly new to me a company we have sold in the past few years to many other lower budget operations. Yet to hear of any of this gear over the past couple of years ever having a problem as similar to the NSI concept of lower price gear but stuff that really doesn’t have problems so far but could given how they do it. This brand and these brands are very popular for their price. Ten years from now it could be that such gear is crap or like an ancient 2.4Kw Dove dimmer six pack I had seen at one theater over the years, it could be really good stuff. Dove board.... in doing shows on them I cringe.

    In shopping for price for specific items, there is MSRP and dealer price, some arbitrary manufacturer suggested retail price of a light board or dimmer has little to no role in what will be quoted to you for price by the suppliers of the gear. Your price more matters on how juicy the overall bid is, how hungry for the sale that company bidding on the gear is and what their own dealer price discount factor is in quoting out what they could sell not just one piece of gear but your entire quote of gear for in keeping a reasonable profit margin. (Yep, glad I don’t do the retail sales if I can help it.)

    Grand Stage is a very respectable company in the Chicago area, but given a four or five state 100 mile radius one can easily come up with lots of other vendors of the gear you might be looking at in a semi-local way. This given internet sales with associated shipping and handling charges will not play a sufficient role in your purchase. Even sell fixture gear to one of my lamp distributers in another state but semi-local. They service their area in even going beyond just selling lamps, we do ours in buying lamps from them yet our own discount factor is sufficient for our own customer in the end. Their discount factor with us based upon our own discount factor is still reasonable enough to make it economical to the customer to buy from them locally. Economical enough that they could be in competition with us for a bid and even get it even if they were buying their gear from us.

    That’s how the quote and business works. You as buyer have the power in getting your gear - all of it quoted out thru a number of sources and given this basing trust and service on one level balanced with price overall on the other level. Lots of companies that could provide gear to you within a hundred miles of you this Chicago Area. Basing your quote upon who you trust and normally deal with is good but to be held in balance with others that might at times be better price and perhaps just as good. (This all being really careful to be really fair to all suppliers yet not writing my own place of work out of the concept...)

    One option if not knowing of various suppliers for gear to you would be to visit the websites of the gear you are interested in and look at the distributers of their gear in your area. Should come up with a decent list assuming they have updated their website to be accurate. Often not but it is a start.
     
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  12. thelightguy87

    thelightguy87 Active Member

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    thanks for that, for what i understood, as i am very new to purchasing on this scale, and haven't done anything on a bid level. I figured Grand Stage because yes its close, and yes its who I normally deal with, but on terms of research, they could give me detailed information as to what i'll probably need. I do know of a few resellers in my area, one is much closer than grand stage, which I also plan on calling. But I'll check out the list of distributers from the sites and go from there. thanks for your help and everyone else who commented. This is developing into a much larger project then i thought it would be.
     
  13. gafftaper

    gafftaper Senior Team Senior Team Fight Leukemia

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    Yeah I would start by contacting Grand Stage and simply say this is how much money I have what can you do for me. Then do your research from there. By the way, Solarisnetwork has a used ETC Acclaim 148 for $1400... looks pretty nice if you just want a good two scene preset with Subs.
     
  14. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Gonna be limited in use most likely - do I read the 10' ceiling correct?

    Given your already inventory, hold off a bit especially on going too high tech no matter LED or Leko. Don’t know length and with of the theater space or the stage size in this but I spent years in a 14' wide by about 32' long space with 9'-2" ceilings and know the nature of short ceilings in design.

    First given your inventory, you will need a few more items to supplement it I would recommend in at least getting up to a base of lighting package sufficient to cover your space. Quote into the package your Q120PAR 38 fixtures - the theater needs to purchase these items if they intend to use them as a base of light which they would help with. You than can buy with the money other toys that will help you design further if you wish or pay off bills. Overall concept is that you have to separate what you bring to the theater in helping them with what costs you money and or they are using without necessity given a budget.

    On the final statement, I have not priced out dimmers in a few years but theorize that your pricing is not really accurate. A 1.2Kw dimmer pack should not be double the price of a 2.4Kw dimmer pack without at least providing more dimmers which would at least provide a similar price. 600w dimmer packs are an option also but not as flexible in my opinion for a localized system easy to re-patch during a show and that will most likely become the case.

    Note also 750w Lekos of note... not going to need that wattage of lamp given your expected throw distance other than for gobos or specials that need to pop given your throw distance. You will now be in the 575w/115v range at most if not even extended life lamp range for output reasonably for a similar good output. EHD lamps can be sufficient, so can GLA, HX-400 and HPL 375/115v high output or even HPL 575/115v extended life lamps for your base of light sufficiently. Sure other lamps will be best and useful for specials but your base of light will be for Leko in the above range and for Fresnels, in the 500w if not 150w range.


    Twofering... yep on a 1.2Kw dimmer you still would be for two instead of four fixtures. Where needed if needed you would instead now be needing to twofer the dimmer packs instead as concept by way of DMX assignment instead of paying money for a line voltage twofer. The savings on Twofers in needing half per circuit at most if at all would easily afford possibly another dimmer pack in getting up to 36 channels as a concept if that’s the director’s intent and budget to afford both 2.4Kw and twofers. Hmm... for a proper twofer you are in the $35.00 to $60.00 range retail. 2x times 24 channels equals at minimum $1,724 in budget alone (assuming two cables per dimmer on a two output dimmer pack) for twofers as opposed to just a minimum of $864.00 in twofers given a 1.2Kw system - assuming a twofer plug in and not directly running cable to the second outlet of the dimmer. Zero dollars if not in need of twofers given two outlets per dimmer pack beyond normal stage wiring needs out of needing a few of them. Present to the “him” the cost of twofers added to the 2.4Kw dimmer price, and inform him of throw distance luminous photometric concepts (you will see and be able to show with a pre-design on paper) and such 2.4Kw dimmers with twofers I theorize will seem unnecessary as opposed to getting more control in a less wattage situation for 1.2Kw dimmers and lesser wattage lamps.

    Back to your inventory, the 8x 6" Fresnels I would take as a base of light, not a great base of light but I would start with that. (When ready for more, I know a local theater that would love to sell off some of their by me factory reconditioned Fresnel over surplus for cash or trade. I would have no part in this, just kind of know of a small community theater sitting on like 60 or 80 6" Fresnels all in top factory spec or better condition they don’t need half of.)

    Still on 6" Fresnels, assuming your theater is wider or equal to 14' wide you should plan into the budget some barn doors for these fixtures. This especially the wider your size of theater. Perhaps up to 50% ratio Fresnel to available barn door but at least 1/3 more likely of them having one. That’s a cost to factor in. Get a few at least and build on the accessories from than. Done with the 6" Fresnels for the most part given what I would assume your theater. Eight of them could be sufficient for now in this fixture not really being ideal for such a space.

    On the Lekos, might see if the 19 degree SL can be traded for another 26 degree or better yet a wider focus Leko. Both would be better served with at least 36 degree if not fifty degree in beam spread. Your pre-design should show the limited nature of the fixture given photometrics. Lamp them with GLA lamps and all will be sufficient. Put away the 750w lamps for a special.

    Overall on fixture count it is not much to start with but something there. Your PAR 38 fixtures would certainly help with the filling of holes, wash and or specials dependant upon how many you have. PAR 38 lamps are sort of a directed wash beam not a Fresnel but not a Leko but can be often helpful for both areas if not for their own concept as unique. In the eight to twelve of them would be a good start.

    Beyond this, think small for further needs by way of fixture count while investing the money on dimmers and control. For now at least. Possibly go to Menards with their discontinued line sold off cheap or any number of other retailers and buy some track lights which in using MR-16, PAR 16, PAR 20 or PAR 30 lamps would provide further semi-directed wash to your theater in a small fixture package. Such stuff can be adapted to stage use. All sorts of this type are 120v so you won’t have to worry about dimmer/lamp life issues. A few banks of track light are or would be tremendously useful to cover for holes especially if you go with 40 to 60 degree lamp types available to them at an extra cost for specified lamp as opposed to provided lamp.

    Getting further, think like 4.5" to 3" lens type lighting fixture for such a short throw distance. While a few birdies (see above in not needed as much) or PAR 20's might be good for some places, I think more 3" Fresnels, 3.5" Lekos and 4.5" zoom type fixtures would be more useful. This especially for the Leko range that your theater lacks. Wide focus of 50 degree for any of them most needed. Amazing what output a little light will do for a short throw distance over any normal sized fixture and that is a key concept.

    Normal concept for design might be at least 50% Fresnel, 50% Leko so more Lekos might be indicated for needing. Think Altman 3.5Q5 with Osram HPR 575/115v lamps if not Phillips GLA lamps. Good dependable fixtures, good lamps. These would be primary on my fixture budget for at least six or twelve of them. Following that 3" Fresnels at least six of them if not sixteen. Note the barndoor need above also if not top hats also but as a concept on a Inkie, one needs less accessories for the shorter throw distance.

    That’s a base of light, the 3.5" Leko, and the 6" and 3" Fresnel backed up by the PAR 38 and MR-16 or track light in general banks. Beyond this, I might look into a few GAM nook lights and at least two 10" scoops so as to wash the stage or provide lightning effects. Really cool to look into would be MR-11 micro stip strip lights for a cyc light. Good wash, small size.

    Overall note one might be detecting is that if the talent is like 6' high and the audience out in the audience, you don’t want like 2' of yoked lighting fixture hanging down into the stage picture above the stage or into the platformed audience area. Beyond this, you don’t have the throw distance thus need smaller but wider focus light fixtures. Sure a 90 degree Selcon or S-4 would be really cool to have but also in both cases the size of the fixture over powers the stage. A PAR 56 can easily over power your stage now given throw distance, yet a few feet shorter in throw distance so can a PAR 46 if WFL also.

    Best to think small fixtures so as not to break the fourth wall. Smaller fixtures, less wattage also. You now get into conditions of needing more fixtures to cover a design area but those fixtures of less wattage. More dimmer channels and or control of them helps in a small space over huge for the space 2.4Kw systems of control of them given very limited amounts of dimmers.

    Design the show, do the photometrics and exected candlepower on stage for each area and scene and hopefully it in a pre-design type of way will graphly point out the need for more dimmers or control circuits, more fixtures and less on some mainstage production concept of doing the show. Hmm, these fixture even four feet apart leave a certain dark spot of coverage over the stage at 3' or more throw distance to the actor’s head. This 3' distance in fighting dark spots and shadows are a major factor in fighting photometrics of what you have in design given such a short trim height.

    That’s even benevolent... Say you have a 10' ceiling, you now have a 4" at least lower grid, and 12" from there lower to the fixture if 6" based. 16"-72" in a 120" space from a 6' actor than leaves a minimum of 32" overhead in throw distance dependant upon how far the talent is from the throw distance than at an angle. Hmm, less than 3' in throw distance to at best given shadows and ceiling height like say 8" at best in throw distance, you now have a very wide focus fixture needed to design properly with. Also a fixture that given the law of squares needs less wattage.

    Always remember the A2+B2=C2 in throw distance three dimensionally. Smaller fixtures wider focus. Thus also the need to design at least one show for the space before you move into it when specifying the gear that will be installed.

     
  15. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Cannot imagine the amount of hours I in the past in quoting out a five year plan, re-rigging a fly system or even today in specifying out a new lighting fixture I have to spend. All part of the process. Balance your leg work off how much man/hours you spend in doing it and organizing it. But also keep really accurate notes of everything you learn both for this bid and later.

    These days for me at least while salary, the amount of hours in R&D and working on the bid does get paid for in my specifying the R&D time added to the parts and labor. The more you do the easier it becomes but on the other hand the more you do at first the more labor in learing it needs.

    Help is there both in having worked in similar spaces and in having specified and quoted out the gear for similar spaces. At some point based upon your now experience hopefully you will pay back any useful advice and what you learn to others - that's the concept. This much less let all of know vicariously your own learnings and experiences with this opportunity.

     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2007
  16. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Color Blast fixtures will come down in price in the future given a more rugged version is out there and it is most using it are switching to. (Replacement costs of a broken lens once labor is added in to say the least make the newer fixtures more cost effective.) Still you need a power supply sufficient and DMX channels if you want independent control and you do for each.

    LED fixtures while a good option (fake lighting to design around) are a goal, but still I believe they should supplement a base of light you don’t yet have.

    Don’t know much overall in LED fixtures other than what we have in use and I work on to make something else. I know the PixelPup is about a PAR 46 or 36 in size but probably not cost effective for you at this stage. Perhaps some scrollers instead for the Fresnels might be more economical at this stage in the game. This would save you a few hundred dollars in needing more Fresnels perhaps as a concept given more dimmer channels needed to power them up as a balance. Scrollers also as newer LED fixtures come about also become cheaper on the resale market. This given the noise factor of a scroller overhead in a small theater won’t detract from the overall essence of the play. I given sufficient power would go for more dimmers and fixtures over scrollers and LED’s. Dependant upon design needs might even go for LED over scrollers also to some extent if over the audience in mounting and they would be to get a sufficient throw distance given lens size.

    Overall I might think Home Depot for much of my fill and supplement light, than add small stage fixtures especially Lekos after that. For them go used where possible or second generation over third generation SL or S-4.

     
  17. gafftaper

    gafftaper Senior Team Senior Team Fight Leukemia

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    A lot of great advice there from Ship... no need for me to comment further. Find out what your real budget is, get a price quote and then come back and let us help you discuss the results.
     
  18. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    Discuss with your electrician/electrical contractor: it may be less expensive to install "shoebox dimmers" or "lightbar dimmers" at the fixtures rather than a 12 x 2.4Kw pack somewhere "backstage." He would have to run more circuits to the 12x2.4 pack, thus more expense in conduit or 12/3 cable, plus find the 3ø 120/208VAC 80amps/leg for a 12x2.4, and build a patch panel with male inlets so you could hard patch circuits to dimmers. This shoebox, needs two 20amp 120V circuits, so you have 2400watts across dimmers 1,2,3, and 2400watts on 4,5,6. No more than 1200watts on any dimmer, though. It would almost be like dimmer per circuit, or even dimmer per fixture, very versatile, all patching at the console. Same with the Lightronics tree dimmer, 4x600W, no 750W lamps, but you should be using the 575W GLA or GLC in your Strand SL ERS. NSI makes dimmers in shoebox and stick-style as well.

    I second the LP-624 console. But ETC's SmartFade may be price competitive. Although I'd rather have the Insight also. Whatever you get, make sure it's DMX, not Microplex or analog or any other proprietary protocol.
     
  19. soundlight

    soundlight Well-Known Member

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    As Derek mentioned, you may want to look at getting dimmer packs instead of a dimmer rack. You might look at Leprecon's ULD series, NSI's DDS or ND series, or Lightronics' AS series. Dove Systems also has some good truss mount solution. However, I always reccomend against Lightronics, because I've had multiple bad experiences with them. But, everyone has to hate someone, right?

    From what I've heard, the ADJ P64LED fixtures are pretty reliable, and are the widest spread LED P64's in your price range that I know of. 12 of them would probably do a good stage wash. Also, PAR38s are cheap, see if you can ger 12 or 16 of them in to the budget. They're great fixtures for a venue with ceilings that low.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2007
  20. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    A Sensor or CD-80 12x2.4 is going to be around $4000. 24x2.4 would be just under twice that. ETC and Strand and others are POA on all high ticket items. The more you buy, the less expensive things are, within reason. BillESC could give you prices privately, PM him.

    Once you decide on all the gear you want, be sure to get bids from Grand Stage, DesignLab, and Chicago Spotlight, and at least one vendor not in the Chicago area. Make them list line item, and purchase the least expensive items from each vendor. I used to have relationships with all of the above, 20 years ago.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2007

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