New Stage Deck Surface

[ethelirene]

Saw this stuff at USITT

http://bellatex.com/everfloor/

Has anyone used anything similar and do they have any thoughts they'd like to share? It looks like a bit of an investment, but potentially exactly what we're looking for.

 

[RonHebbard]

This appears similar to a manmade material called Arboron which I believe is the stage surface in Toronto's Canadian Opera and National Ballet space. I've only seen Arboron in 4'x8', and longer [12' custom ordered], sheets in a variety of thicknesses but I'm not aware of Arboron being available with pre-drilled and countersunk holes. I will say that Arboron is unconscionably expensive. It was indeed black all the way through and I'm recalling the house carp and prop heads were having difficulty keeping it matte black rather than appearing grey due to ballet rosin and / or the least trace of cleaning residue remaining after mopping. My involvement with the Toronto space had nothing to do with flooring whatsoever as I was playing on site A/V installation supervisor for the A/V sub-contractor subbing to Plan Electric, the primary electrical contractor. I was able to snag a couple of 1/4" off-cuts for my collection of samples of pro' products to show to others but the product was priced in the range of 'unobtaineum' for the likes of folks I meet. Now that I think about it, I'm recalling a couple of local suppliers offering to pre-drill / countersink on their quotes.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

ET you ask a great question. I saw it over a year ago, based on going back a ways with Ty, Bellatex owner. It has some very appealing properties but I'm not sure it has enough to overcome the simplicity and renew-ability of plyron and paint. Can't wait to see what others sat but then, some people love the stageboard (Trex-like material) and others hate it, so not sure I'll know. At least it has a rating for flammability, a good starting point. (Stageboard did not.)

 

[sk8rsdad]

The description isn't very useful as a comparison but it sounds like it might be another brand name phenolic resin impregnated hardboard (aka SkateLite, RampArmor, Arboron). The stuff is darned near bulletproof, really heavy, and pretty pricey. $100+ for a 4x8 sheet. I've used it for an outdoor skate ramp but it's overkill for most stages unless they sustain exceptionally high traffic. The edges are sharp enough to lacerate.

I'm with Bill, paint and regular hardboard, or plyron if you want to cut down on installation time, is a better choice. It has the advantage of being self-healing when sets are screwed to the deck.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

The description isn't very useful as a comparison but it sound like it might be another brand name phenolic resin impregnated hardboard (aka SkateLite, RampArmor, Arboron). The stuff is darned near bulletproof, really heavy, and pretty pricey. $100+ for a 4x8 sheet. I've used it for an outdoor skate ramp but it's overkill for most stages unless they sustain exceptionally high traffic. The edges are sharp enough to lacerate.

I'm with Bill, paint and regular hardboard, or plyron if you want to cut down on installation time, is a better choice. It has the advantage of being self-healing when sets are screwed to the deck.

I thought I heard more like $200-300 sheet. Maybe I'm off but there was a sort of instant "thanks but no thanks" when I heard the price. Must have been in shock. It is a waste or by product of a switch board materiel, a kind of replacement for bakelite, IIRC.

 

[sk8rsdad]

I suspect the pricing is quite variable, whatever the traffic will bear. I went straight to Iten Industries in Ashtabula, Ohio. This was 10 years ago. U.S. Customs was really thorough about a guy in an empty rented white panel van. Canada Customs looks at you funny when you come back with a half ton of sheet goods at 2am.

 

[RonHebbard]

The description isn't very useful as a comparison but it sound like it might be another brand name phenolic resin impregnated hardboard (aka SkateLite, RampArmor, Arboron). The stuff is darned near bulletproof, really heavy, and pretty pricey. $100+ for a 4x8 sheet. I've used it for an outdoor skate ramp but it's overkill for most stages unless they sustain exceptionally high traffic. The edges are sharp enough to lacerate.

I'm with Bill, paint and regular hardboard, or plyron if you want to cut down on installation time, is a better choice. It has the advantage of being self-healing when sets are screwed to the deck.

Hi Dad!
I'm completely concurring: HEAVY is an understatement. Edges near sharp as scalpels and, here in Canada, an associate was quoted in the area of $550.00 per 1/4"x4'x8' sheet mid 2015 IF his order met their minimum quantity. To further drive home your comment re weight, when the flooring was delivered to the Toronto Opera / Ballet project, the installers spread the fork lift pallets around the concrete dock area rather than grouping them together to conserve space. Each pallet was THAT heavy. They rolled the sheets into the sprung floor stage areas on a scenery dolly, 3 or 4 at a time with four installers shifting sheets, one at a time, from the dolly to close to their final positions. Yep! Priced like unobtaineum in my neck of the woods.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

 

[ethelirene]

Our stage is pine. It’s trashed from being sanded so many times. We use Marley for classic dance performances and MDF for step shows and Greek events. The brown MDF isn’t popular, and the groups have to rent it and pay us to install it.
I’m looking for something that can stand up to a highly percussive dance style performed sometimes with canes and in shoes not necessarily designed for dance (mainly stilettoes, which occasionally lose their little rubber pad and expose a nail, and hard soled dress shoes).
If it had the added bonus of not being MDF colored, that would be amazing. If we didn’t have to install it every time, and could just use it as our default deck that would be even better.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Plyron.

 

[JohnD]

I have to wonder if the nice folks that make plyron have sent @BillConnerASTC a T-shirt or a coffee mug or something. By the way, thanks for sharing your wisdom on this and other subjects.

 

[Apmccandless]

I have used 1/2" hardboard and had a lot of luck. It is not as expensive $100-$125 a sheet. It stands up to whatever abuse you throw at it. I have had issues with MDO (plyron). If you scratch MDO you have a limited ability to sand out scratches with hardboard you can sand the surface. Also I have had issues with water delaminating plys. It is very heavy to install but it lasts 10+ years with heavy usage. If you go this direction lay it well and leave it.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I have used 1/2" hardboard and had a lot of luck. It is not as expensive $100-$125 a sheet. It stands up to whatever abuse you throw at it. I have had issues with MDO (plyron). If you scratch MDO you have a limited ability to sand out scratches with hardboard you can sand the surface. Also I have had issues with water delaminating plys. It is very heavy to install but it lasts 10+ years with heavy usage. If you go this direction lay it well and leave it.

.

Plyron is not MDO. They are very different products.

And can you post a link for 1/2" hardboard? I have never found hardboard thicker than 1/4".

 

[Apmccandless]

I have never seen HDO but it sounds interesting. How does it hold up to scissor lift traffic? Does it delaminate or bubble up if saturated with water?

I will call my lumber yard and find out where they get it the half inch hardboard. My rep said he can get even thicker up to an inch thick. That just seems excessive.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

MDO and HDO is basically plywood with a heavy paper outer layer that is " impregnated with resin". Good for signs, and not for flooring to best of my knowledge.

Plyron is quite different, being a plywood core but outer layers are 1/8" tempered hardboard laminated to the core. Another way to describe it is plywood with outer veneers of tempered hardboard. Flooring is an acceptable application. Think of it as thick hardboard - 1/2", 5/8", and 3/4" standard, others custom. Very dimensionally stable, unlike hardboard.

 

[Apmccandless]

So after a copious amount of research here is what I have come up with. My lumberyard can no longer get it. It was produced by Olympic Panel Products but they closed down the plant that produced thicker Masonite and are still determining if they will start producing it again.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

So after a copious amount of research here is what I have come up with. My lumberyard can no longer get it. It was produced by Olympic Panel Products but they closed down the plant that produced thicker Masonite and are still determining if they will start producing it again.

I just had a contractor tell me this and it's not true. Not only are the still making - I called the mill directly - but I found enough in a local warehouse. Also, found another mill that is making it. Not where I can access that now but will. Learned that stage floors is overwhelmingly the market for this product, and they sell most in summer.

Plyron is an APA product standard, and anyone can make it. When I started specifying it there were three mills, then it seemed to be only Olympic, now two.

 

[JohnD]

I'm confused, was post #15 referring to plyron or to the extra thick hardboard?

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Besides Olympic - http://www.olypanel.com/common/pdf/Tempered Plyron Prod Lit - 11-07 .pdf - look for plyron at Eagle Plywood Specialities - http://www.eagleplywood.com/docs/2007Plyron.pdf - and from Roseburg - http://www.buildsite.com/pdf/roseburg/RigidPly-Plywood-Product-Data-B31830.pdf.

JohnD - Maybe you are right - I assumed - possibly wrongly - this was about Plyron. I've still never heard of hardboard thicker than 1/4" - certainly not 1/2". I'm wondering if it was MDF or HDF - which is medium or high density fiberboard - which looks a lot like hardboard but is different. Fibreboard uses resin (one is urea formaldehyde) to hold wood fibre together; hardboard (Masonite) does not, basically IIRC a chemical change resulting from steam and high pressure; tempered being coated with linseed oil and baked. I get a kick out of hardboard being invented by accident. Again, IIRC, Bill Mason "invented" Masonite by accident - something about a pressure cooker "exploding" and scraping stuff of the ceiling and voila - hardboard is "discovered".

 

[MNicolai]

I just had a contractor tell me this and it's not true. Not only are the still making - I called the mill directly - but I found enough in a local warehouse. Also, found another mill that is making it. Not where I can access that now but will. Learned that stage floors is overwhelmingly the market for this product, and they sell most in summer.

Plyron is an APA product standard, and anyone can make it. When I started specifying it there were three mills, then it seemed to be only Olympic, now two.

FWIW, I and the cost estimators on a couple current projects haven't been able to get Swanson Group to return any phone calls or emails about the Olympic product. Either they have terrible customer service or they have become defunct. I've been trying for about 2 months and ultimately went with Roseburg's RigidPly product (apparently has been renamed Plyron to reflect the APA standard, but their website and data sheets don't yet reflect this). My Roseburg rep said he noticed sales on Plyron have ticked up lately, possibly a consequence of whatever has made Swanson Group go incommunicado.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Olympic-Swanson - was supposed to be producing plyron again this fall but perhaps missed that promise too. Roseburg's Rigidply seems viable but I have not seen it bid. Eagle Plywood Industrial Plyron is what I have seen on many recent projects - but it is out of Minnesota area headquarters stretching across upper midwest. So for three in my spec: Olympic Products Plyron; Roseburg RigidPly; or Eagle Plywood Industrial Plyron. Today. Tomorrow may vary.