New Theatre at My High School

[CraigV]

My old high school is getting a new theatre for their drama and music departments. I have the opportunity to suggest the new equipment, and I have a few questions I thought I would ask here. We have a very large budget, even considering how expensive all this equipment is.

For the purposes, I am thinking that the ETC Element would be the best board. It currently has an Express and, for the most part, the Element looks pretty similar in layout and abilities (obviously with newer pieces too).

For lights, I am unsure of whether I should petition for LED S4s or normal S4s. I am leaning towards LED, but someone told me that they are not as bright. I was definitely going to petition for LED cyc lighting.

I guess my question is: LED S4s or regular S4s?

Do LED S4s have the ability to switch the lens tube, or something similar? Besides gelling and life-span, what would be the benefit of LEDs? Once the LEDs burn out, does one have to buy a new fixture?

 

[Morte615]

Won't speak to the board, there are LOTS of differing opinions but I do like ETC products.

As for LED's if you are building out from new I would go with LED's, the lens tubes are removable and you can use different degree barrels just like the ican. versions. As for brightness they match a 575W pretty close but can't touch a 750W. As for the other perks: no gelling, longer life span, lower power draw, and just plain cooler! But you did hit on one of the cons, when the LED dies (or dims as they do) then you have to pick up a new base fixture, though ETC will probably have exchangeable LED units that can be fit into an existing body.

As for how long they last we don't have real world data yet (they haven't been around long enough) but figure you can get years of use out of them before needing to replace the LED's.

 

[express]

I think for front lighting, you're going to want the good old regular source four. It has the intensity, and will typically look better on skin.

That said, for lighting from the back or sides, LEDs are making great strides however, from that position, it typically would make more sense to go with a wash type fixture, mostly for the price tag... although it would be cool to see a gobo wash done from S4 LEDS.

I think another thing that might be overlooked is the cost- A regular S4 can be had for about $250, where the list price on the LED is around ten times that. (Not that most people pay list price...)

Even ETC has said- "It's not a replacement for the tungsten S4, but simply another tool in the LD's tool kit."

 

[derekleffew]

... I have the opportunity to suggest the new equipment, and I have a few questions I thought I would ask here. We have a very large budget, even considering how expensive all this equipment is. ...

(I'll try to phrase this as gently as possible... Random thoughts...)
If you think "all this equipment" is expensive, you probably DON'T have a "very large budget."

Feel free to ask your questions here, but, IMHO, this isn't an area where you're qualified to be making these type of specifications. Are you a student? Faculty? Staff? Not that it matters much/at all. But theatre lighting equipment probably has to last at least twenty years, and sometimes students fail to see the long picture. They don't understand why an administrator doesn't want to spend 5K, 10K, or more on a lighting console or moving lights that will be obsolete in a year or two.

Spend the first part of your budget on an experienced, qualified theatre consultant. One whom you like, trust, respect, and who will "value engineer" the project specifications to suit your needs and budget. Not make decisions on what is cool or trendy, or necessarily "what everyone else is doing". See ASTC, and/or ask similar theatres who designed them and specified the lighting equipment.

Identify the needs first. Then the wants. Then choose equipment that meets/exceeds that set criteria.

My personal feeling is that I would not, today, specify an equipment package that did not have at least some incandescent luminaires for a new install. But there are many others who disagree with me. /debate ON

EDIT: Sorry forgot to answer one of your specific questions.

...Do LED S4s have the ability to switch the lens tube, or something similar? ...

From ETC Products - Source Four LED Luster+ :

Source Four LED luminaires use the same barrel as other Source Four fixtures, so you can easily retrofit your inventory. For the highest-quality, controllable beam, Source Four LED fixtures can accept any standard Source Four lens tubes, but you can achieve the best results when using a Source Four EDLT (Enhanced Definition Lens Tube). And ETC offers an LED-only 50° lens tube.

 

[Les]

At this point, I wouldn't specify a package of LED Source Fours for front lighting. Maybe a half-dozen for specials, but not front lighting. They just aren't time tested enough for me to feel comfortable yet.

LED Cyc lights have certainly made a name for themselves over the last few years. I'd definitely look in to that. Altman, ETC and Color Kinetics all have very good fixtures out. The Altman Chalice LED house light is apparently wonderful as well.

Do make sure that you can actually spec equipment, so as to avoid disappointment. Lots of times [especially when tax or bond money is involved] these projects go out to bid, so you 'spec' the type of instrument [but you can't call it by name] you need and what it should accomplish, and the company that can fulfill those needs at the lowest price gets the job (usually). This means that you could end up with a substituted instrument (like 65Q's instead of ETC Fresnels) unless you're very very careful with your phrasology. Ex: instead of asking for 'name-brand 6-inch fresnels', say 'fresnels shall contain a 7-inch lens and utilize the industry-standard HPL lamp'. This is, of course, from what I understand about the spec'ing and bidding process. YMMV, but I'd definitely confirm how much 'power' you really do have.

I also recommend the consultant route. Better to always have two eyes on the subject.

 

[CraigV]

Thank you. The reason I said that they are expensive is because I am a college student and rarely personally have that in my account. The money going into the new theatre equipment is, I think, about 1.5 million (but that also has to go towards sound). We are going to have about 108 dimmers. I was just asking for other people's opinions because we have our need and wants, but I am not up on the latest LED lighting technology.

I figured that the people here would be more knowledgeable on LED fixtures than I personally am. From what I have read here, I think I will request mostly incandescent S4s, but also a few LED S4s. We will definitely have the LED strips and probably far cyc.

 

[LekoBoy]

We are going to have about 108 dimmers.

Wow, that many huh? What ever are you going to do with that many dimmers?

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

We plan 4 or 5 high schools theatres a year and a couple of years ago we switched from central dimmers - 288 usually - and predominantly quartz units to distributed power and data, mostly LED over stage and sky drop of course, and a front of house of primarily quartz with S4 or backpack dimmers and some LED. Just seems that we are not going back to quartz (LEDs could become the asbestos of this millennium...) and there is no need for central dimmers and significant savings in eliminating them - to help pay for the LED. With initial savings in electrical work - about a third of the copper and pipe - and cooling - sort of halves the cooling load of the stage and auditorium - it is almost a break even. Consider anything for electrical and cooling energy and anything from relamping materials and labor, and it should break even before long. Higher labor cost in CA should help that.

It does take the ability to very carefully specify equipment so you get something you can live with; and a lot of education of the MEP engineers on the differences in case they "have a standard plan" for school theatres.

I think if planning today for a building that will open in two years or more it would be a mistake not to rely on a distributed system and as little quartz as you can get away with to start, because it will get better and brighter.

 

[CraigV]

It's more than everyone involved ever anticipates using, but it is not something we will say until we need more budget somewhere else. There are always multiple shows at the same time, so each show could be assigned a set of dimmers to use from that for specials. We do high-power shows there too (we just finished a production of Tommy). (I say 'we' because they pulled me back from college to TD.)

 

[RickR]

Your best advice can probably come from your knowledge of the program at the school rather than your knowledge (or ours) of equipment.

Focus on what you want to accomplish and WHY, in as much educational language as possible. IE "Multiple shows at the same time gives more students a chance to participate. So we need enough a system to both cover the stage and have specials for each production." That will get budget allocated to lighting and budget will get equipment. Saying "I want 108 dimmer and X fixtures and Y console" won't get you those things without the reasons behind it. Try to look at the good things you did that were very hard and at what could have been done if the framework was there.

If you do nothing but convince the school that they need a theater specialist, who understands the needs and the equipment, then you will been a big help.

 

[techieman33]

If it was me I would spec selecon pacifics over source 4's to be able to use cheaply printed gobos. You only have to print a few of your own gobos for them to pay for the extra cost.

 

[Sean]

If it was me I would spec selecon pacifics over source 4's to be able to use cheaply printed gobos. You only have to print a few of your own gobos for them to pay for the extra cost.

Well....

I believe one can put plastic media in the gate of an LED Source-4. I think this suggestion is very short-sighted, particularly for an educational venue. Selecon Pacifics never made much market penetration other than in educational institutions. Why have students handle gear they won't typically see in the 'real world'?

All that said, to the original poster: What exactly is that budgeted amount supposed to buy? Is that JUST portable gear (lights, cable, etc) or does that also include all of the installation materials/labor (dimming, conduit, etc)?

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I guessing this is a substantial upgrade of the school's facilities and I have to wonder if they have taken increased labor and expertise required and how that affects the equipment choices. Initial cost is only one factor. Start now on use policies .

 

[DJZS]

If its for a highschool heres what I'd reccomend.
LED CYC Fixtures (ETC LUSTR)
12- 19 degree Source 4s
24- 26 degree Source 4s
24- 36 degree Source 4s
12- 50 degree Source 4s
30- ETC Source 4 Fresnels
12- ETC Source 4 Pars
12- ETC Source 4 LED Lustr+
5- Clay Paky Alpha Spot HPE 575 or 700s
4- Clay Paky Alpha Wash 700

2- ETC Sensor 48 Dimmer Racks with contol cards
96- ETC Sensor 2.4K Dimmer Modules
6- ETC Sensor 2.4k Relay Modules
1- ETC Ion Console
1- ETC 2x20 Fader wing
1- ETC 2x10 Fader wind
1- ETC Emergency Lighting Transfer System
JR Clancy Rigging

 

[Les]

If its for a highschool heres what I'd reccomend.
LED CYC Fixtures (ETC LUSTR)
12- 19 degree Source 4s
24- 26 degree Source 4s
24- 36 degree Source 4s
12- 50 degree Source 4s
30- ETC Source 4 Fresnels
12- ETC Source 4 Pars
12- ETC Source 4 LED Lustr+
5- Clay Paky Alpha Spot HPE 575 or 700s
4- Clay Paky Alpha Wash 700

2- ETC Sensor+ 48 Dimmer Racks with contol cards
96- ETC Sensor+ 2.4K Dimmer Modules
6- ETC Sensor+ 2.4k Relay Modules
1- ETC Ion Console
1- ETC 2x20 Fader wing
1- ETC 2x10 Fader wind
1- ETC Emergency Lighting Transfer System
JR Clancy Rigging

Based on what criteria? We don't even know how big their space is, what their throw distances are, and at what kind of angles they're shooting from....

 

[DJZS]

Based on what criteria? We don't even know how big their space is, what their throw distances are, and at what kind of angles they're shooting from....

Well, thats for a pretty standard basic setup that for a High School, almost always is good. But yes, dimmensions, and info would help a great deal.

 

[chausman]

Well, thats for a pretty standard basic setup that for a High School, almost always is good. But yes, dimmensions, and info would help a great deal.

And what's the average cost for a system like this? Which is, (FYI) nowhere close to anything in any high school near here.

 

[zmb]

Which is, (FYI) nowhere close to anything in any high school near here.

Sounds similar to the two 500 seat houses I work for, minus the moving lights and LEDs, add in a lot of PARs for side lighting off over ladders. And replace the Ion and fader wings with an Element.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I just can't agree with the predominantly quartz and central dimmers for a new build opening in 2015. That era has passed, especially for the high school theatre.

 

[chausman]

I just can't agree with the predominantly quartz and central dimmers for a new build opening in 2015. That era has passed, especially for the high school theatre.

Not if the budget isn't there to support it.