I have a Middle Atlantic UPS-1000R installed in our P-ACP rack that is used to power the P-ACP and the network switches. To my knowledge the battery in it has never been replaced and the unit is original to the building (circa 2013), and based on previous experience with UPS batteries, if this is the case it is definitely past due for a replacement. My question is whether I should get a replacement battery back for the UPS I already have or replace the UPS entirely. The UPS may be almost 10 years old, but it seems to be working fine - the past few blackouts/brownouts we've had it transfers power over the battery normally, but it's also since been discontinued by Middle Atlantic (or technically Legrand, I guess). The model that Middle Atlantic released to replaced this one is astoundingly expensive, so I was looking at models from APC and CyberPower that have the same power ratings but are much cheaper, but then I got worried that there was some reason our installer/ETC spec'd the Middle Atlantic UPS. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but I still wanted to get some second opinions. TIA!
Can you get the batteries? I have a 20+ year old APC that I'm still using just by replacing the batteries. There are some componetns that will age, such as the capacitors, but if it's still working fine, and replacement batteries aren't going to break the bank, I'd try that first, while seeing if you need a replacement and can get funding.
UPS's are a commodity. It's not critical that you have a Middle Atlantic UPS. Think of it more like this -- when you're putting in an order for racks, power distribution, cable management, etc -- it's easier to source all of that from one vendor than spread it out across several. With someone like MAP, you also get the benefit of consistency -- lot of the same SKU's have been around for years -- whereas APC/etc will often have completely different SKU's over time with little differences between them. If I want to buy the same APC UPS I bought a couple years ago, it's a crap shoot whether that SKU will still be valid or if I have to navigate through the latest iterations and decipher the differences between them.
FWIW, my general philosophy is replace batteries if the battery lifetime is the only issue. If a UPS faults out and starts reading error codes for any reason, I replace the entire UPS -- absolutely no question. This experience is less from installations and more from experience at the office and personally. A UPS that hard faults out may only need a battery replacement, but it could be there are issues with the charging circuits or other functions and it's not worth the hassle to buy the replacement battery only to discover that -- either immediately or in the weeks/months to follow.
It's important to address either way -- a battery going bad in a UPS, even if the UPS is running on line power, is susceptible to dirtying up the power fed to output devices. Can't say I've seen this so much on Paradigm, but I have seen it cause hiccups in legacy Unison systems.
FWIW, my general philosophy is replace batteries if the battery lifetime is the only issue. If a UPS faults out and starts reading error codes for any reason, I replace the entire UPS -- absolutely no question. This experience is less from installations and more from experience at the office and personally. A UPS that hard faults out may only need a battery replacement, but it could be there are issues with the charging circuits or other functions and it's not worth the hassle to buy the replacement battery only to discover that -- either immediately or in the weeks/months to follow.
It's important to address either way -- a battery going bad in a UPS, even if the UPS is running on line power, is susceptible to dirtying up the power fed to output devices. Can't say I've seen this so much on Paradigm, but I have seen it cause hiccups in legacy Unison systems.
That model has a proprietary battery module, which may be unobtainable. If the module is made to come apart, the batteries inside are likely to be off the shelf gel cells. I would take apart the battery module to see if the batteries can be replaced. If it won't come apart, or gets damaged in the process, you haven't lost anything because the UPS is junk without good batteries. If the cells have spot welded connections, toss it. If you can't risk losing money on a set of batteries, then you should buy a new unit.
I maintain a large number of UPSes, and failures are almost always due to bad batteries. Some are 20 years old and still working fine. I can't remember the last one I had to retire from a component failure, so it's gambling money with favorable odds. I put a date sticker on them when I change batteries, and try to change them out at around the 4 year mark. It's also a good to run the self test periodically.
I maintain a large number of UPSes, and failures are almost always due to bad batteries. Some are 20 years old and still working fine. I can't remember the last one I had to retire from a component failure, so it's gambling money with favorable odds. I put a date sticker on them when I change batteries, and try to change them out at around the 4 year mark. It's also a good to run the self test periodically.
You can get a replacement battery, but they are almost as much as a new UPS, which is part of my debate of one or the other
It all depends on the UPS. A true, online UPS probably costs 5 times what a set of batteries does. An online UPS offers a level of protection to the load that an offline or line interactive UPS cannot, because the output power is always filtered from the batteries and inverter. This is why you can buy a cheapie for $200, or spend $1000 for one with the same power rating. If the UPS is protecting an expensive piece of equipment, or the operation is mission critical, only use an online UPS. It's a case of getting what you pay for.
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Admin note: this user has been banned, post has been left up for continuity of the thread. The opinions given by this user are not recommended, they are not to code and frankly, a Bad Idea all around.
Original Post:
APC is retail, we're better than that. I mean, if you only need one and done, fine. Otherwise, if you need something big. Use an inverter + deep cycle marine battery.
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I don't like the battery and deep cycle idea. Not very many people have the skills to build that so it works well and is truly safe. It is dealing with very high currents on the DC side, battery gasses, chargers that can damage batteries, RF noise, etc.
I had a tower site tenant throw that sort of kludge together once. The batteries were sitting open on the floor, below a rack of equipment. One dropped wrench and it would have gone kaboom. I made it disappear.
I had a tower site tenant throw that sort of kludge together once. The batteries were sitting open on the floor, below a rack of equipment. One dropped wrench and it would have gone kaboom. I made it disappear.
@FMEng Agreed.
We do inverters for systems like emergency lighting and house lights -- but it's all UL listed for that purpose -- not using off-the-shelf parts stuck together. The only time I can imagine deep-cycle marine batteries being acceptable is for practicals on-stage where a piece of scenery needs power and also needs to be mobile -- definitely not for general purpose equipment. Quite sure my clients would fail their inspections and wouldn't be able to get CO's if we ever put something like that on a project.
We do inverters for systems like emergency lighting and house lights -- but it's all UL listed for that purpose -- not using off-the-shelf parts stuck together. The only time I can imagine deep-cycle marine batteries being acceptable is for practicals on-stage where a piece of scenery needs power and also needs to be mobile -- definitely not for general purpose equipment. Quite sure my clients would fail their inspections and wouldn't be able to get CO's if we ever put something like that on a project.
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Name meanyone here who can't understand that red is POSitIve and blk has only 1 where to go??
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Your clients clearly NOT from NY
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OH.... Follow the $$$
Jay Ashworth
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Come on, TED. There's a *lot* more than that involved in designing and building stationary battery plants, and if you *don't* know that, I would recommend that you not be advocating about it in public places, lest you end up a codefendant in someone's insurance lawsuit.
Not sure what that's supposed to mean, but since the original question was in reference to a P-ACP rack, seems like this discussion has reached the point where it's time to page @STEVETERRY for his perspective on an end-user slapping an improvised inverter system with a marine battery you'd find at Walmart into their installation.
Quite a few people here actually. ControlBooth has large audiences of high school and higher ed students and faculty, so you're talking to many people with varying degrees of knowledge about electricity as well as electrical and life safety codes.
Red is positive, sure, except when it's black, and except when it's white. Context is very important when you're talking to such a broad audience. In another thread recently you also suggested you thought it was acceptable running (3) #12's, all white, to power some ceiling fans, and thought that by virtue of being 30ft in the air, the conductors were sufficiently protected from damage and therefore didn't need to be in raceways. I can assure you I've never met an AHJ who would let that fly. You may want to slow down in the future before recommending solutions to the masses that are not suitable for the actual problem trying to be solved and are likely to create trouble with the local AHJ as well as with manufacturers' warranties of connected equipment.
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MNicolai, I didn't mean PERMANENTLY. Hey we put up Christmas Lighs dont't we? What difference does the load make? I 'mean there'd be adequate circuits and soo and so... Anyway, the show isn't going to happen it's cancelled. In fact, the whole school is closing.
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That's not physics, it's a legal "CYA."
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