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Conventional Fixtures New vs. Old 36° S4

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by derekleffew, Jul 22, 2008.

  1. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    A colleague/friend of mine, and member of CB, is incensed that ETC changed the field angle of the 436 between 11/2001 (Cut sheet Revision C) and 12/2007 (Cut sheet Revision F--current). [user]STEVETERRY[/user] has previously <stated/admitted/disclosed/confessed/boasted> that there have been many changes to the SourceFour fixtures since 1992, and most are minor and not apparent to the consumer. Has anyone ever had a genuine problem mixing older and newer fixtures?

    He is particularly angry at ETC for not making a more public notice. (I did point out to him that all the cut sheets include the phrase "All product information and specifications subject to change.", but that didn't seem to comfort him. Do you think a manufacturer has an obligation to inform the consumer when a relatively minor specification has changed?
     
  2. Grog12

    Grog12 CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    Hmmm....if I have its never been enough to notice. I mean I've had the typical older instruments not being benched properly ect ect....but never a true blue "god this batch of S4's really outperforms those perfectly in good condition old S4's."

    What exactly is the change in field angle for us uniformed?
     
  3. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    Sorry, [user]Grog12[/user], thoughtless of me not to include complete documentation. Although this would be so much easier if I could attach the PDFs directly. How's that problem coming, [user]dvsDave[/user]?:(

    436 Revision C, dated 11/2001. 436 Revision F, dated 12/2007. The first shows the beam angle as 25°, field angle as 35°, and candlepower as 82,000. The most current shows the beam angle as 27°, field angle as 34°, and candela as 90,885. Both indicate an HPL 750W/115V as the basis for testing. Perhaps it's akin to candy bars getting smaller while the price stays the same, so the consumer doesn't notice he's being ripped off? My guess is different lenses and/or coatings.

    Now of course I'm going to have to go and check all the SourceFour sheets.
     
  4. Wolf

    Wolf Active Member

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    I think if they're going to be changes to any fixture no matter how small they should be published. They dont need to make it a big deal but dedicate a section on the web site to miner changes. This way if the customer wants to check it out they can but if they dont really care they dont have to know.
     
  5. jmabray

    jmabray Active Member

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    But they did publish it. IN the cut sheet, and, I assume, in the manual, as well. They didn't make that big of a deal of it, true, but it's not like they tried to sneak it past anyone.....

    Based upon their history, I am sure that if there were a significant change to any of their products, the would make sure to make it very public knowledge
     
  6. MNicolai

    MNicolai Well-Known Member Fight Leukemia

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    I must admit, I wouldn't mind finding out what the "Rev G" on the barrel of my S436° signifies. If a degree or two of is different between new and old models, I don't know I'd be particularly upset. I don't really deal in throws that are so incredibly long that a couple of degrees results in a life or death consequence, though I wouldn't mind being told about it.
     
  7. jmabray

    jmabray Active Member

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    i can't speak specifically as to what the "Rev. G" means, but it could be something as insignificant as needing a new casting for the the barrel.

    My point is, that its really a way for a manufacturer to make some changes to a particular product and what they did. If it doesn't really effect prodcut performance, its not that big of a deal.
     
  8. SteveB

    SteveB Well-Known Member

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    Problem is the definition of "minor"

    To Tim it wasn't minor, though I got the sense that he discovered it while rendering/working in Vectorworks ? and not actually while seeing it on a set/stage ?.

    Having read the threads on LN, I had a couple of thoughts.

    - If they were all rental units, did the shop even know ?. Would they be that much on top of it to have different lens tubes for ea. and every variation that ever came out of ETC ?. Doubtful. Bottom line is you end up with what they give you, and I know of NO shop in the US that keeps track of these changes, so shut up and deal with it. As you stated Derek, it's as much art as science. Tim is incorrect when he states that corporate events need to be scientific. Bull. They hired a Lighting "Designer" not an "Engineer", act like one and make it work.

    - But, it makes me wonder about just how precise our industry can be with the technology AND the financial considerations. If NASA couldn't get the Hubble optically at 100%, who expects ETC to ?.

    At least it's not the good old days of "Is that Rosco R34 or R34A".

    - What would Tim have done, or what would he do if he was in a European hall with everything as zooms ?. Hmmm.... probably would have taken off his Engineers hat and put on his Designers hat.

    My $.02

    Steve B.
     
  9. Grog12

    Grog12 CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    Yeah..I'm going to have to go ahead and agree 100% with this.

    That's what cut sheets are for. Its not like the HD fancysmancy lens they released so there's no need for a great big hooplah over it.
     
  10. MNicolai

    MNicolai Well-Known Member Fight Leukemia

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    Not to be over-critical, but in the event there were changes, how would I go about getting data sheets for the lights I own, and how do I identify which Rev sheet I would need? Is that by manufacture date?

    I'm trying not to think of the logistical mess that would be for each Rev of each degree/model of S4, but it's not so bad if the 36° is the only one with a change made to it.
     
  11. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    From what I can tell, datasheet revision B happened in 2000 with the introduction of the 750W lamp. Unlike most manufacturers, there is (or was when it left the factory) a sticker with the month and year on the side of the yoke of every SourceFour™. In order to alleviate confusion, ETC posts only the most current datasheet for each fixture type on its website for public consumption. If you're seriously concerned, send a PM to ETC Fixture Manager (and CB member, yea!) tomlittrell. He doesn't visit CB as often as we'd like, so it might be more expedient to phone him at ETC's general number, 1.800.688.4116 or 1.608.831.4116.
     
  12. Grog12

    Grog12 CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    Uhm....save them when you buy them. You should keep a book of all the cuts sheets for instruments you buy, almost like MSDS. If memory serves they ship with them.

    In the case of used lights, well honestly if you're in a situation where one or two degrees matters that much (such as the case described above) you're either A)Using the wrong light for the job in the first place B)Don't have enough instrumentation to cover the stage anyway.
     
  13. MNicolai

    MNicolai Well-Known Member Fight Leukemia

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    Somebody else was in control when the older fixtures were purchased. I already grabbed the sheets from the new shipment of S4's that arrived in today.
     
  14. ricc0luke

    ricc0luke Active Member

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    We've spent the last month going through our inventory and benching our Source4's-- and we have had problems with some of the older (perhaps 1st generation) units focusing well with a 36deg barrel no matter how they are benched. Your not crazy.
     
  15. Lightingguy32

    Lightingguy32 Active Member

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    From my observations. the Rev G stamp on the lens tube casting and the Revisions before that simply point out minor changes in casting positions and barell shape, rev G is simply for the EDLT
     
  16. MNicolai

    MNicolai Well-Known Member Fight Leukemia

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    That can't be right, because my rev G is on a regular S4. Maybe I misread it though.
     
  17. jmabray

    jmabray Active Member

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    No you probably read it right. I think what he is trying to say is not that Rev G means that you have the EDLT, but rather that minor changes were made to the barrel design to be able to accommodate either the standard lens set or the EDLT lens set. Does that make sense?
     
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  18. MNicolai

    MNicolai Well-Known Member Fight Leukemia

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    Ahh, yes, that makes complete sense!
     
  19. Lightingguy32

    Lightingguy32 Active Member

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    Correct, to clarify, lenstubes before the "revG" casting could not accomodate the EDLT lenses due to not having the lenstube casting positions for those lenses. A few revisions before that, the 19° lenstube casting was in a slightly different position. Also a few minor physical changes have happened between the first revision lenstube and "revG" the lens tube used to have a much more circular shape to it now it is a little more square and the gel frame holder area is a little larger (I think the aperture also got a tad larger). Speaking of revisions, I just looked on my units they are all either "revG" or "revJ" (I think they are the same with some change so minor I can't seem to see it.
    The general timeline of lenstube revisions starts with the Pre-98 lenstube that has a different casting position for the 19° lens. The post 98 has the newer 19° lens and lens tube cast position. Between 1998 and present time, the lens tube became a little more square, got a larger color frame holder, a black color frame retaining clip, and a slightly wider aperture. Then in 2005-2007 (can't remember exactly when the EDLT first hit the market) <edit: 11/2006--DL>, the EDLT lens tube casting positions were added to every lenstube. So in essence there are three big variances in the 19°-50° lens tubes. The first is the older 19° position, the second contains the new 19° position, and the third the EDLT positions and the standard lens positions. (This may sound repetitive, but hope it helps).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 28, 2008
  20. MNicolai

    MNicolai Well-Known Member Fight Leukemia

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    So really what you're saying is that just because someone purchases an EDLT lens tube, it's not guaranteed that it will fit?
     

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