Newbie on the board (But been in Theatre for over 35 years!)

Hi all!

I'm really a musician (Been in pits since 1981), but have ended up here because I'm trying to get a church up and running with cool stuff.

In particular, I just purchased them a used Times Square Follow Spot. It has a 1500W P40S Halogen bulb.

My questions:

The new Times Square Follow Spots have 100W bulbs. Are the new ones more efficient, and thus need less initial lumens to get the same result? Or do I perhaps have the wrong bulb?

Or did someone decide that 1500w continuous on a single circuit was a bad idea?

AS to that last point, LEDs seem to be the rage in everything. It seems to me that 39000 lumens is a lot for even an LED array, but are there LED replacements for my follow spot?

Cooler and less power seem like good things, even if I have to trade some output for it!

Thanks in advance!

Phillip
 
Welcome Phillip! Good to have you here. I moved this post to the Lighting Forum so it is posted in the proper place. A lot of members do not regularly visit the New Member Board. You should get some good replies here.

Enjoy your time here on CB!

~Dave
 
Hi @Phillip Brown !

Can you post some pictures and/or model numbers for both the spot you purchased and the 100w version you're comparing it to? I have never seen an incandescent/halogen spot go as low as 100w (though 360w ENX-based is common. You'd be hard-pressed to throw a rock and avoid hitting ten of them). The 1500w DTA lamp sounds about right for an older unit and shouldn't be a problem as long as its on its own 20 amp circuit. No 100w lamp I know of will fit in that socket. Maybe the 100w version you referenced uses a LED source?

As for retrofitting, unfortunately you probably won't have very good results with that. You'd need to add a whole bunch of cooling, and your light most likely has a spherical reflector and particularly inefficient set of optics (usually Reflector > lamp> "Conza" stepped lens > [chopper/iris] > Plano Convex > [Color Boomerang] > Plano Convex in that order — give or take the front plano convex lens depending on model). This configuration, especially with the conza lens, will probably give you a very unpredictable effect unless you remove the lens and place the light source in an ellipsoidal reflector. Even then, it's kind of a shot in the dark.

However, I wouldn't worry too much about power consumption of these. Sure, they gulp power, but only for a little while at a time. I'll bet the conversion wouldn't show up on the electric bill. Now the heat on the other hand... Builds character ;).
 
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Thanks for the response!

Sorry for the confusion it caused, but I lost a "0" in my post - I meant the similar units are 1000W!

I'm curious as to why the additional cooling you mentioned would be required if I were to retrofit an LED array? It seems to me that an LED array would be cooler than a 1500W halogen - am I missing something?

Here's a pic:

00D0D_8R01F9ZtsuT_1200x900 crop.jpg


I believe you are correct about the order of optics, even to the point of its not having the final lens after the "color boomerangs".
 
Thanks for the pic! That light is similar to the Altman Dyna-Spot. The models without front lenses were short-throw/wide angle versions, if memory serves me correctly.

The reason for the 1,000w vs 1,500w basically comes down to improving lamp technologies. The 1,000w models use a quartz halogen FEL lamp, axially mounted within an ellipsoidal reflector. This setup captures more light, and the new quartz lamps were way more efficient than their incandescent counterparts, so a lower wattage could be used. Back when your spot (and the Dyna-Spot) were designed, no such quartz axial-mounted lamp existed - they were all incandescent and had to be mounted either base up or base down in front of a spherical reflector, which is a lossy way to mount a lamp.

As for cooling, you are correct that the LED will run cooler than the lamp. However, the increase in cooling isn't to protect the fixture, but the LED module itself. Many of the COB (chip-on-board) LED's will need quite a bit of heat-sinking to get the rated life from them. You might be able to find large screw-base retrofits (such as for warehouse high-bay applications) that won't need extra cooling. It really depends on whether you're going to go with a finished product or create your own from scratch.
 
The Church is 50" x 50', and the beam size seems to be perfect for our application -so we may have lucked into it.

You are knowledgeable, and I'm taking pot shots into the dark...so let me ask the question phased with the final intent: "Is what I have in stock form the best it will get, and I need to just leave it alone?"

I have no problem doing just that, but I was thinking that modern technology SURELY had some cool things that would retrofit!
 
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Thanks for the kind words!

I won't say that what you have can't be improved upon, but I will say that to do so, you'll need to do more than drop in a new light source. I experimented with a similar spot several years back, before LED's were viable. I wanted to see what would happen if I used a deeper ellipsoidal reflector and 575w lamp (basically just a huge version of an MR-16). I feel that my findings will translate to LED as well. What I found was that the conza lens did more harm than good, when faced with a more focused and even beam of light. These conza lenses seem to play multiple roles. The "steps" direct the light forward (as parallel as possible) and if you'll notice, on the "bulls eye" of the lens (nearest the lamp), there are very slight vertical ripples. I believe this is designed to replicate a lenticular lens, spreading the light more horizontal, since the filament structure of the original lamp is vertical and the light coming out of it will mimic that pattern (in lenticular lenses, vertical lines will spread light in the horizontal plane and vise versa). So basically, this lens un-does all the good things a well-designed light source and reflector combo achieves; spreading light needlessly in a lenticular pattern since the lamp it's correcting for is no longer there. Removing that lens cleared up the problem.

Assuming you do that, you'll also need to optimize the position of the LED (and reflector, if you were to use one) as the factory position would most likely no longer be applicable. What type of LED system would you be looking in to? The off-the-shelf high-bay retrofit I mentioned would give a lot of light, but the entire source would need a reflector. It's pretty huge, so what's already existing won't work - you'll lose a lot of light in the housing of the fixture. Those retrofits also have LED's placed on top, so you'll lose light there as well, since there's no way to capture it (assuming you go with a base-down configuration). Over all, any LED "screw base" lamp is probably not the right tool for the job.

COB LED's would probably be your best bet, and won't need much of a reflector (generally, I see them with nothing more than a shallow aluminum surround), but you will have to remove the conza lens, optimize the position of the LED, and make sure the LED module can be cooled properly (anything bright enough will need significant cooling). Also keep in mind that the gels in the boomerang may or may not play nice with LED's (thus, give funky colors and negatively impact the output), and that might require experimentation as well.

One other caveat is that the other plano-convex lens in the system is what we call "coke bottle green", in that it will have a greenish tint to the glass. This is primarily due to the fact that the best glass wasn't used for the optics. You will lose some of your efficiency in there as well.

So can it be done? Probably, but it will take some engineering, and even then, this light will fight you every step of the way. I would consider it a labor of love, and keep all your parts in case you need to go back (while you're at it, mark all lens, shutter, and socket positions on the rails). In terms of electrical efficiency, I wouldn't worry too much about a followspot that is only used for a few hours a week. With the platform provided, expect less light output, and a potentially short LED life unless you really tackle that cooling. Your beam might also be funky - just luck of the draw whether it works or not.

Now you also mentioned heat. I'm not sure if this particular unit has a built-in fan, but if it doesn't, a little electrical and metalwork could get you one (or two). If it was my spot, I'd put one fan exhausting the air at the color boom (mounted in the floor of the spot) and another just behind the reflector (again, blowing air down and out of the unit). You'd have to cut the proper-sized holes in the bottom of the spot, and use metal fan grilles to protect wandering fingers.
120v fans would be easy to wire, just be sure to tie them together using a good 150-200°C rated fiberglass sleeved wire (like SF-2), and heatshrink all connections. Use terminal blocks for junctions as opposed to wire-nuts. You could sleeve the fan leads in fiberglass casing as well, for extra good measure.

One word of warning: This fixture may have asbestos wiring. If you see fuzzy white wires leading to the lamp socket, that's what it is (not to be confused with woven fiberglass such as SF-2). This really should be abated anyway, but be especially careful when working around it. Remove it, bag it, and dispose of it in accordance with local codes.

I'll bet by now you're thinking of leaving it as-is. ;)
 
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Welcome also, not in the trenches as long but been there also. Looking forwared to your advice and teaching of others.

Does this really have a P-40s socket? Interesting, never seen a spot with one but would love to see a mogul pre-focus lamp socket based followspot. Love Les's reply by the way and agree mostly on concepts. Would add that Times Square is still in business and any modifications to the light or bringing back to factory specifications should be run thu them before upping the wattage beyond specification. While its an old lighting fixture, it might be that the higher wattage lamp was tested but the fans to cool it were not sufficient to prevent overheating the reflector or as dangerous - cracking the lenses. Newer/more powerful fans installed if no doubt in modern use could allow for an upgrade of the lamp wattage... possibly. This would be dependant upon as per AV high school requirements of allowing the film projector to cool before shutting it off. A proximity of a reflector to a lamp can at times cause cooling problems with that, and even a upgrade of fans cannot at times sufficiently deal with due to location or proximity of the fans a problem with the lamp cooling properly.

In other words, it's not always possible to up the wattage in a fixture - look even to the FEL 1Kw lamp for working in a 360Q Altman Leko, but also burning out faster its lamp sockets and reflectors.

Going LED... Les had so much more eloquent a post then mine about doing 6" Fresnel LED upgrade problems before I refreshed and saw someone did it.
 
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Thanks for your interest!

It does indeed have a P40s socket.

As to cooling via fans, it doesn't have any. There is a knockout (that is covered by a plate) that appears to be a good place for one. If I read the manual for the new models correctly, one would be wired so that it runs continuously when the unit is plugged in (e.g. the switch would only be for the lamp)
 
Thanks for your interest!

It does indeed have a P40s socket.

As to cooling via fans, it doesn't have any. There is a knockout (that is covered by a plate) that appears to be a good place for one. If I read the manual for the new models correctly, one would be wired so that it runs continuously when the unit is plugged in (e.g. the switch would only be for the lamp)

Yep, that would be correct. There are some followspots where the fan switch gives power to the lamp switch, so the fan can be turned on by itself but the lamp can't be powered without the fan, but these spots usually contain power supplies or ballasts, so it's a good idea to run the fan to cool them after use. However, your spot is simple enough that this isn't needed - you'd just wire them together.

The lamp in your spot doesn't require a fan, but as you've noted, it's probably more comfortable to have one. It also extends gel life and can reduce the risk of lens breakage due to thermal expansion. The unit you have was probably an "economy" version, and did without these creature comforts as a cost-saving measure. I actually don't know that I've ever seen a fan-cooled spot with a P40s socket. The Altman Dyna-spot I believe had a fan/blower option since I saw spec sheets including a squirrel-cage fan in some units but not others.

I'm actually working in a theatre right now that is using an old spot while their other is being repaired. It was made by Little Stage Lighting and has a P40s socket (1500w lamp) and the dual-lens optics. No fan in the unit (and no provisions for one), so it gets pretty hot!
 
So...we went to test it. The second time we powered it up, the bulb popped when we turned the power on.

So I ordered a new bulb, and took the opportunity (while waiting on the bulb) to take all this apart, clean it, paint the outside, and put it back together...

Super excited till the new bulb blew when I turned the power on!

The unit is essentially a big floor lamp, right? With a simple circuit that the switch completes?

So, why would I have popped 2 bulbs on power up?
 
So...we went to test it. The second time we powered it up, the bulb popped when we turned the power on.

So I ordered a new bulb, and took the opportunity (while waiting on the bulb) to take all this apart, clean it, paint the outside, and put it back together...

Super excited till the new bulb blew when I turned the power on!

The unit is essentially a big floor lamp, right? With a simple circuit that the switch completes?

So, why would I have popped 2 bulbs on power up?
Have you metered the voltage at the socket and, if so, what was the reading?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
 
Yeah, there really isn't much more to it than that. A few things to check.

Of course your incoming voltage is 120; which lamp did you buy? I'm almost certain that this isn't your issue, but it's a good first thing to rule out.

In what way did the lamp fail?
A). Filament broke unceremoniously?
B). Went supernova (bright flash)?
C). Popped really loud?
D). Popped really, really loud?
E). Blackened the envelope?
F). No visible defects just stopped working?
G). Both B and C are correct?


How did you handle the lamp? You're not supposed to touch these with bare fingers, however, a lamp would have to get good and hot before that* would become a problem ("that", meaning the oils off your skin can create hot spots on the envelope. These hot spots become weak spots, and blaaap! This takes some minutes or even hours of use).

Was there anything you were doing to the spot at the time other than turning it on/off?

I'm thinking one of two (and a half) possible causes:

1). You're just really unlucky and got two bad lamps (bad batches can happen)
2). Your socket is bad – this would manifest in a lamp that looks okay but just won't work
2.5). Or you have a failure in the wiring of the fixture. Don't forget to check the connector (plug) as well.
 
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Thanks for your responses.

I checked the incoming voltage and it is indeed 120

The other lamp worked when I bought the fixture. It died when we turned it on after buying it (of course! <grin>)

The replacement lamp flashed and them was gone. Don't remember a popping sound, but it could have been there!

I took care not to touch the new bulb, so hopefully not a skin oil problem.

The bulb was a Sunlite brand DTA 1500W/T8/120V/CL/P40.

I looked at the Amazon page https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00B48E3F0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

and found it had horrible reviews. A common problem was "supernova-ing" out. :)

So I have ordered a Sylvania Osram model 54716 DTA Sylvania 1500w 120v 3200k P40s. Hopefully that will fix my issues!


Thanks for your help - I'll keep you posted!



Yeah, there really isn't much more to it than that. A few things to check.

Of course your incoming voltage is 120; which lamp did you buy? I'm almost certain that this isn't your issue, but it's a good first thing to rule out.

In what way did the lamp fail?
A). Filament broke unceremoniously?
B). Went supernova (bright flash)?
C). Popped really loud?
D). Popped really, really loud?
E). Blackened the envelope?
F). No visible defects just stopped working?
G). Both B and C are correct?


How did you handle the lamp? You're not supposed to touch these with bare fingers, however, a lamp would have to get good and hot before that* would become a problem ("that", meaning the oils off your skin can create hot spots on the envelope. These hot spots become weak spots, and blaaap! This takes some minutes or even hours of use).

Was there anything you were doing to the spot at the time other than turning it on/off?

I'm thinking one of two (and a half) possible causes:

1). You're just really unlucky and got two bad lamps (bad batches can happen)
2). Your socket is bad – this would manifest in a lamp that looks okay but just won't work
2.5). Or you have a failure in the wiring of the fixture. Don't forget to check the connector (plug) as well.
 
what does the lamp socket and wiring to the lamp base look like? While not normally what would cause a "pop" can cause a problem with the halogen effect in a later pop.

Above better including how the lamnp handled etc.
 
OK, wanted to post the final result:

As I said, I ordered an Osram bulb....

Before I put it in, I checked voltage everywhere - 122VAC. So that shouldn't be a problem...

Completely removed the top of the spotlight so that we could insert the bulb and be absolutely sure that we had not touched the glass and that it went in correctly.

Installed the bulb, flipped the switch .... :pray:

AND LET THERE BE LIGHT!! :dance:

So apparently the first bulb was on its way out, and the 2nd was unadulterated junk.

All problems seem to be fixed by buying a name brand bulb.

Lesson learned.:rolleyes:

BTW, the Christmas program at the church was last night. The spotlight made a huge difference!!!

Thanks for all your support!
 
Excellent! The old spotlight lives to fight another day. Glad you finally got it up and running!
 

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