Nightowl Stage Lighting

[nightowlstagelighting]

There's a problem with your argument: ETC does not make any such recommendation in any of their documentation and their relay products definitely do not include surge suppression. Hopefully Steve Terry (or someone else from ETC) can jump in and confirm this...

Again, inrush is not something that happens to the fixture and it's not actually a voltage spike. Instead, it's a large amount of current drawn by the fixture for a very brief period of time as capacitors in the fixture's power supply are getting their initial charge. This is something the fixture is doing regardless of how it's getting power (relay, switch, manual plugging-in, breaker, whatever), and it shouldn't be harmful to itself unless there is something really wrong with the design of the fixture.

If you're telling me that plugging one of your fixtures into a regular outlet with constant power is likely to damage the fixture, then I'm definitely never going to buy any of your products. That's absurd.

I was just trying to tell you guys the safest and best way to operate LED pars. If you think it's a good idea to plug any electronic device in the on state into a wall socket on a regular basis that's fine. I see no reason for the hostility

Scott

 

[nightowlstagelighting]

The other poster is correct just a dry relay will do nothing to protect a device. If you just want relays you can get a 4 channel relay pack for 99 bucks

Also the Watson manual CLEARLY states surge protection to extend device life

 

[Malabaristo]

I was just trying to tell you guys the safest and best way to operate LED pars. If you think it's a good idea to plug any electronic device in the on state into a wall socket on a regular basis that's fine. I see no reason for the hostility
Scott

That's not hostility; that's astonishment. I apologize if it came across as anything else in writing.

 

[nightowlstagelighting]

That's not hostility; that's astonishment. I apologize if it came across as anything else in writing.

I fail to see what is astonishing about a device like a Watson that is designed specifically to provide the cleanest surge protected power to unswitched devices and that doing so is a good idea. Otherwise why would anyone spend 600 ona one circuit dmx relay switch. We sell quite a few Watson and VX relay packs and who would spend 4K for 12relays if there were not more to it. I am simply telling you guys what that more is. Do with it what you will

That's not hostility; that's astonishment. I apologize if it came across as anything else in writing.

Scott

 

[Jeff Lelko]

I'll acknowledge/reply to the longer response you (Scott) wrote me once this digression subsides, but I was under the impression that a surge suppressor is designed to protect from dangerously high spikes in voltage - not inrush current, which is a completely different and normal thing. A surge suppressor also won't protect from low voltage or brownout conditions which can also be damaging to certain equipment. I think the point that others are making is that if a light's power supply isn't robust enough to handle "everyday use", there's no sense in buying it. And just to avoid further contention in this thread, "everyday use" is just that - I plug a light into a power outlet, I expect it to work without any other equipment that failure to use blows the light and voids my warranty. That said, always meter the power first.

 

[soundlight]

FYI - the entire industry, world over, powers their LED units, moving lights, &c. off of just plugging it in to a circuit and turning it on and off with a breaker for portable, touring, and indeed some installed situations. I have never once heard about surge suppression having a factor on inrush current, as surge suppression is designed for voltage spikes, not current spikes. Surge protectors - by and large - do have an OCPD on them, but that's for sustained overloading, not for inrush, and it just shuts off the power. It's called a breaker.

As Jeff stated above, always meter power.

Why would someone spend that much? Because it's a smart device for an install. The Watson is a great little unit, and I'd suggest them to anyone doing small installs. It's able to know when your board is on or off and control power based off of that, which is a great feature for spaces where you know that the gear will not be turned off. And as far as the VX racks - or any other expensive relay cabinets - they can switch 2400 watts per channel, not just 600-ish like the $99 relay packs. They're also reliable for much longer, installable, and are manufactured in the US with US support. Comparing a 12-ch VX rack to a $99 relay pack is very much apples to oranges, just like comparing inrush current reduction to over voltage surge suppression. (Please link to an actual $99 relay pack if you can, all of the ones that I've found are "relay/dimmer combo", and just turn in to "relay" by not using the dimming function of the dimmer - power still passes through the dimming circuit.)

 

[microstar]

Hello,

The DMX relays we are talking about have surge protection to limit the inrush. That's the whole point. Dry relays are the only switching mechanism recommended for switching pars on and off, surge protection is a must, sorry I thought I made that clear. All the ETC and Leprecon devices mentioned are at there core surge protectors. The key is if you use anything other than a dry relay surge protector, it is not sufficient, and risky.

Thanks,

The other poster is correct just a dry relay will do nothing to protect a device. If you just want relays you can get a 4 channel relay pack for 99 bucks

Scott

You're the one that said that ETC and Leprecon made their dry relay devices WITH surge protection. Everyone else told you that those devices are just dry relays and DO NOT have surge protection. So I take it you now agree that the devices in question are just dry relays and do not have surge protection built in?

 

[GreyWyvern]

Again, inrush is not something that happens to the fixture and it's not actually a voltage spike. Instead, it's a large amount of current drawn by the fixture for a very brief period of time as capacitors in the fixture's power supply are getting their initial charge. This is something the fixture is doing regardless of how it's getting power (relay, switch, manual plugging-in, breaker, whatever), and it shouldn't be harmful to itself unless there is something really wrong with the design of the fixture.

This is what I was trying to remember yesterday. Inrush is only a concern when it comes to breakers. Say you have a string of 12 fixtures all connected together, but not powered yet, and those 12 fixtures are below the amperage of the breaker. You shouldn't have to worry about them after they are powered up, however, the amount of current drawn when power is applied to the string of fixtures could very well be enough to trip the breaker. This is called.... inrush!

If you're telling me that plugging one of your fixtures into a regular outlet with constant power is likely to damage the fixture, then I'm definitely never going to buy any of your products. That's absurd.

This is also a very good point. That would indicate a very poorly designed PSU.

(It's amazing what a good night of sleep can do for ones mind!)

 

[STEVETERRY]

Hello,

A LOT of people are unaware of this huge issue. That 20-50K lifetime means nothing if you are putting a surge to the light every time its powered on.

ETC states for their ColorSource LED Par:

Consult breaker trip curves when used with other equipment.
Requires power from a non-dimmable source
• Inrush (Maximum)
-- 120V: 35A (First half-cycle)
-- 240V: 49A (First half-cycle)

Easy to miss actually.

They recommend their own solutions, their R20 relay module or Unison® Echo Relay Panel. We recommend the Leprecon Watson for smaller installations or the new VX2400 12 Channel Pack with Dry Relay modules in the place of dimmer modules. The nice thing about the Leprecon is that you can mix and match relay and dimmer modules, say 6 of each. This not only allows safe on/off switching, also you can do it via DMX with all these products. Perfect for permanent and touring applications.

The designer at our factory agrees that these are good numbers to go by for all unswitched LED stagelights. If the inrush is consistently higher, you are literally risking the life of your light. That too-high inrush can make it as far as the LEDs, and that's bad.

If someone can't afford the pro stuff, a simple $150 20 amp ETA rack mount power conditioner works pretty good, better than nothing. Even a high quality power strip is better than nothing, especially since they come with insurance. The key is YOU GOTTA DO SOMETHING.

Think about it, you have your pars on, and a car takes out a power pole and the lines cross, if that doesn't get you when they turn the power back on and you have an open circuit with no surge protection, you have a problem.

After this, the lack of a DMX Opto Isolator is the second most common external cause of a LED par failure in our experience, more than getting wet or dropped.

I hope that answers your question, this is an important topic.

Thanks

Scott

Scott--

The post above contains a number of outright engineering errors and misinterpretations:

1. ETC LED luminaires utilize switch mode power supplies. These have inrush currents at startup that are detailed in our specifications.

2. ETC LED luminaires are designed and tested for direct application of power at turn on, without any required modifying device in the power feed. That means they can be turned on by a switch, circuit breaker, relay, or any other device that provides constant line voltage power. There is no functional or reliability difference between any of these devices when used to feed an ETC LED luminiare.

3. Your statements about the "surge" at turn on are incorrect. The only effect of inrush current is that it may trip the circuit breaker if too many luminaires are connected to a single branch circuit. There is no "self-inflicted damage" to ETC luminaires caused by "direct" power-up methods described above.

4. ETC LED luminaires do not require any additional external "surge protection" in order to operate to specifications. In fact, compliance with EN standards required for CE marking also requires severe surge testing without failure. ETC LED luminaires are both CE marked and ETL Listed to UL1573 or UL1598.

5. While a DMX512 opto-isolator is a useful data distribution tool, ETC LED luminaires do not require this device for correct operation , as long as EIA-485 data link loading specifications are complied with in the data distribution arrangement.

Steve Terry
VP Research & Development
ETC

 

[GreyWyvern]

Thanks for clearing things up Steve!

 

[JChenault]

Steve

Idle question here.

What kind of circuit could you build in a "Relay Box" that would control inrush current? I am not an electrical engineer but I can't figure out how it would work.

Second. If someone had such a device what effect would it have on the power supply?

 

[sk8rsdad]

Simple yet inefficient options include series resistors or NTC thermistors. These aren't suitable for large loads, and kind of miss the point for LED lighting which is all about efficiency.

Inductors (choke) also resist rapid changes in current which is why you will find them in switched-mode dimmers.

The hypothetical "relay box" could be made with a secondary relay + resistor inside, and a little bit of circuitry to activate the secondary relay. Basically, current initially flows through a resistor for a time. Eventually, the secondary relay coil (and whatever power supply is downstream) is energized by the trickle of energy which closes the primary contacts to bypass the resistor. So, use a smaller RC circuit to time the initial charging of the capacitors in the bigger RC circuit downstream. It makes more sense to do this in the power supply itself rather than as an external relay.

Google "inrush limiting circuit" for way more details than you probably want.

 

[JChenault]

Simple yet inefficient options include series resistors or NTC thermistors. These aren't suitable for large loads, and kind of miss the point for LED lighting which is all about efficiency.

Inductors (choke) also resist rapid changes in current which is why you will find them in switched-mode dimmers.

The hypothetical "relay box" could be made with a secondary relay + resistor inside, and a little bit of circuitry to activate the secondary relay. Basically, current initially flows through a resistor for a time. Eventually, the secondary relay coil (and whatever power supply is downstream) is energized by the trickle of energy which closes the primary contacts to bypass the resistor. So, use a smaller RC circuit to time the initial charging of the capacitors in the bigger RC circuit downstream. It makes more sense to do this in the power supply itself rather than as an external relay.

Google "inrush limiting circuit" for way more details than you probably want.

Thanks. Makes sense

 

[TJCornish]

I was just trying to tell you guys the safest and best way to operate LED pars. If you think it's a good idea to plug any electronic device in the on state into a wall socket on a regular basis that's fine. I see no reason for the hostility

Scott

Scott, you are making claims which run contrary to basic electrical theory, some of which comes across as an upsell.

Modern switch-mode power supplies are comparatively resilient, and most are universal voltage - 100v - 265v, meaning they can handle much poorer power than devices of the past. Also, most can run on "stepped-sine" power from cheapo inverters that have horrible harmonic distortion; not that I'm advocating doing this.

Is it a good idea to remove power from always-on devices when not needed? Absolutely, and that is the function of many of the products you reference. Relays limit power supply wear and tear by reducing the number of on hours, which also reduces the odds that a significant power issue like a lightning hit will get to the fixtures. Unless they have a special inrush limiting function they are indistinguishable from the light fixture's perspective from any other electro-mechanical way of switching power - circuit breaker, light switch, plugging the cord in the receptacle, relay, etc.

If your products require special handling to have them not blow up when plugging them into normal wall power then I'm not interested, as that's a major deficiency compared to every other lighting product I've used in the past.

I suspect your prior issues relate to other electrical infrastructure problems in your customers' venues, or possibly a bad run of product.

 

[n1ist]

The other way to limit inrush current is to control the timing of when the relay closes or opens. I do this to improve relay lifetime on some of our products at work. I turn on at voltage zero cross, and turn off at current zero cross (the relay closing time is taken into account - calibrated at manufacture, monitored and adjusted for changes during lifetime). All of this is done to protect the relay; properly designed loads can handle their own inrush or have soft-start circuits.

 

[RideTheSquirrel]

Alright ladies and gentlemen; the time is upon us to take an unbiased look into the NightOwl LED pars.

I apologize in advance for this being to photo/video heavy. I wanted to be as fair and thorough as possible. I'll reference photo files name as I need to in order to make this easier.

For those of you who enjoy the TL;DR of reddit: I would say that these guys are a great light for the price, but they have a few shortcomings that you would not see in the top tier quality.

I purchased (12) twelve RGBWA-UV 18x24 Pars from NightOwl with flight cases for $3000 shipped.
See IMG_0007

When I initially placed my order I noticed 2 things. The first being that you can spec these things because they are built to order (at least in my case). There was a choice between, 3 or 5 pin connections, body colors, lenses (you could have anything from Narrow to Wide Floods). I chose 3 pin connectors, black body, and wide flood lenses. There was an option to not purchase in flight cases and be packaged in cardboard instead. I choose the cases, because it never hurts to have them around, especially since I operate in 3 theatres on this campus.
The second thing that surprised me was that there is no form or anything that was offered to me to fill out to spec these. With all those options, I figured they'd have a website that you could place the order on and spec all of the options - but it was done through e-mail and everything arrived the way I ordered it. If it works, I guess I can't really complain.

I was instructed it would take about 10 business days to have the order in my hands from the date of payment. I payed on the 22nd of February and had the pars delivered on the 9th of March. 11 business days by my count.

The cases were much nicer than I expected. They have casters and are stackable. They're built pretty solid and appropriately fit the instrument for transportation. They have robust hinges and locks, and even have wheel locks (2 total, 1 on each opposing corner) and spring loaded lift handles. A great addition which was at no cost to me.
See IMG_0007-0011

Instrument Hardware:
I was pleased to see that each instrument was carefully packaged and shipped with a 3 pin dmx cable. I was not expecting the 3pin dmx cable at all, so this was a complete bonus to me. The lighting instrument itself has fairly thin casted walls. It feels very lightweight compared to other versions of this same type of LED par I've used. You can see that it has been equipped with dual yokes but no clamps or clasps come with the instrument itself, as is typical in the industry. No safety cables either. The lenses are designed to vent through, which work well; you can feel the air flow through them but not enough to disrupt anything framed (like frost or something). There are actually filtered air intakes near the base of the unit itself, which is something I don't often see in lower priced instruments. The manual is helpful and written in an understandable form of english but feels lightly generic.
See IMG_0011-0016

Processing:
Overall, I will say that the LCD display screen and menus, etc, are not my preference. They are fine in size and functionality (although 1 instrument was clearly damaged in shipping, and not functioning properly) but they are not easy to navigate. Normally you can have a menu which you can choose what channel mode these function in. That is not the case with these; there is a dxxx (being the address number) to signify it is in 10 channel mode or an axxx (being the address number) signifying that you're using 6 channel mode. I have had a hell of a time even in the appropriate setting figuring out how the hell to get these into a 10 channel mode. In the manual it states to press enter to lock in the changes made, but whenever you press enter it just shows a seemingly random number in the 20s or 30s. Perhaps this is user error and I'm currently discussing this with Scott; I'll keep you posted when I sort it out. The other thing that is a pain, but is surprisingly common, is that this does not come with any kind of ETC fixture profile. While they can be programmed easily with a generic RGBWA fixture (and then manually adding in the UV) It would be great to see a full functionality "out of the box" implementation. I have been working on one, so I will gladly make it available to all those who ask for it, that have ETC Ion and other associated consoles that run the same framework.



This will be continued; I have photos with colors and some videos for dimming, but I have to get back to getting a dance show on it's feet.

 

[Van]

Nicely done! excellent review looking for to hearing more about their function and addressing issues. Great to hear they are so responsive and working with you.

 

[RideTheSquirrel]

I would also like to mention that immediately upon my contacting NightOwl Scott reached out to me very quickly and responded with answers to my questions that are useful and to the point. I like that a lot, I can tell these are no -nonsense kind of people and they care about their customers. They are sending me a prepaid shipping box to send the light back to them where it can be replaced/repaired and sent back to me. Excellent customer service!

 

[RideTheSquirrel]

Ok, here are some color images for you guys; I will have more side by side with an incandescent ETC par (and associated gel) in the future for dimming and color comparison. For right now, here are the generic shots. Please excuse this being taken with my iPhone 7+, but these days I suppose these cameras are pretty good. I will get the UV shots in the next post. This was all done from my mix position FOH right next to my Ion console.

 

[RideTheSquirrel]

I've also attached the entire manual for this instrument, that came in the packaging. My phone was having a tough time focusing on the UV.