noob with questions - equipment hookup

[banditj13]

well, dang it.... Thx to dmx-tools.com for this info, but it looks like the older lightronics dimmers send 12 v AC power down the cable

I hope I didn't fry the controller by putting AC power into it!

On another note - it looks like I have a lift showing up at the church tonight to use for a week! - hopefully I can finally figure things out!

Thanks,

 

[kwotipka]

So I was digging around in the supply closet yesterday at church and found another dimmer...
So now I have a spare lightronics as-41 - not out of reach on a light bar!
So I hooked it up to the control board, hooked some incandescents to the dimmer, turned it all on-
Had power at the controller, but the LEDs were dim, and the board acted as if it were locked up....
measured voltage across pins 1 and 2, and only showed somewhere around 1 volt dc... weird....
So, I had some spare XLR jacks, and re-wired to eliminate power from the dimmer, hooked up a wall wart, and could control the lights
Now the problem is that the incandescents flash, rather than just being on steady...
am I still missing something?

Well, it sounds like the board requires more current then the dimmer packs can provide to operate. Since you have the wall wart, then you can use this to power the board.

As to the flashing of the lights. Do the lights flash when there is NO controller plugged in? If they do, then they might be in some sort of chase pattern. Some dimmers have built in chases so that they can be used stand alone for bands, etc.

If this is not the case, then the packs might not be reading the data correctly and therefore might not be compatible with your system. Have you tried all of the packs individually with the controller?

Just read your other post about the 12VAC. Can you confirm this with a volt meter? Also, see if the channel leds respond correctly with the faders (if they have individual channel leds). If not, can you put the board into any type of chase mode and see the output on the console itself. These are two ways to tell if you have damaged anything. I don't think you really have to worry since the ac shouldn't have made it past the voltage regulator. Now if it were 120VAC that would have been another story however that wouldn't be legal anyhow since it couldn't be classified as class 1 wiring.

 

[banditj13]

The lights (60 watts each) in the test senario flashed only when the board was present - the old lightronics I am using shuts all channels off if no controller is present... no dip switches or settings for constant on, in fact, the only thing I can configure with the AS-41 is the starting channel.

Oh, and the only time the lights were flashing was when I had the controller powered with the wallwart - but I didn't change the pinout of the cable to eliminate power from the dimmer, so I had 12vac from dimmer, and 12vdc from the wallwart....

Could the the AC power coming into a DC board cause lights to flash - AC power alternates, DC doesn't ... so could that be throwing voltage levels enough to do that? just a thought?

As for damage to the board - it still responds just fine with the DC wallwart - and nothing else hooked to it... so I assume it is ok?

SO I got the lift delivered to the church tonight

We had some bulbs to change... did verify that all 8 spots were working straight through 120vac...

I did not, however, get a chance to play with the live dimmers much, as we were practicing... (Oh, did I mention, I am playing Joseph in the play? - Technical Director, and semi-lead role.... fun!!!)

Here is what I did get to do:

plugged each of the lights directly to outlets to see them turn on - all worked (with the exception of the one fixture with no bulb in it) we are running 500 watt bulbs in them, and did not have a spare - the Pastor is ordering them tomorrow and we should have them Wednesday

verified power to each dimmer

plugged the control board into the live lightronics as-41 - same issue as with the spare - ac voltage, not DC, down the xlr cable- verified AC voltage with multimeter

Did not have a nearby outlet (while on the lift) to power the controller with wallwart - so I didn't get to test that...

This was all tested with the Lightronics only - the NSI that usually is chained as channels 5-8 was unhooked, and I didn't get to mess with that one.


I did play for about 5 minutes with the NSI 5600 (spare) on the ground, with no lights...I can't get mpx link, or power through the dimmer to the board - All channels power up when I put it in the diagnostic mode that turns them all on.... so the only issue with the 5600 (spare) is MPX link....


Anything I am missing?
If I can't get this going by the weekend - I am just going to put each of the 8 lights on a switch, and control them the old fashioned way....

 

[gafftaper]

So how are you doing with all this Bandit? I forgot to call my repair guy today to see what he had to say but it sounds like the puzzle is mostly coming together. Do you still need me to call and if so what would you like me to ask?

 

[banditj13]

gafftaper - hold off to call - I am going to thouroughly t-shoot the light controller/dimmers tonight - and then get back with my discoveries - If I need you to call, I will let you know

Right now, I still don't have any controll of the lights, other than 4 on. I am crunching time to get this done, but am hoping and praying that the controller will work once I find the cable in the wall for it.

 

[kwotipka]

The lights (60 watts each) in the test senario flashed only when the board was present - the old lightronics I am using shuts all channels off if no controller is present... no dip switches or settings for constant on, in fact, the only thing I can configure with the AS-41 is the starting channel.
Oh, and the only time the lights were flashing was when I had the controller powered with the wallwart - but I didn't change the pinout of the cable to eliminate power from the dimmer, so I had 12vac from dimmer, and 12vdc from the wallwart....
Could the the AC power coming into a DC board cause lights to flash - AC power alternates, DC doesn't ... so could that be throwing voltage levels enough to do that? just a thought?
As for damage to the board - it still responds just fine with the DC wallwart - and nothing else hooked to it... so I assume it is ok?
SO I got the lift delivered to the church tonight
We had some bulbs to change... did verify that all 8 spots were working straight through 120vac...
I did not, however, get a chance to play with the live dimmers much, as we were practicing... (Oh, did I mention, I am playing Joseph in the play? - Technical Director, and semi-lead role.... fun!!!)
Here is what I did get to do:
plugged each of the lights directly to outlets to see them turn on - all worked (with the exception of the one fixture with no bulb in it) we are running 500 watt bulbs in them, and did not have a spare - the Pastor is ordering them tomorrow and we should have them Wednesday
verified power to each dimmer
plugged the control board into the live lightronics as-41 - same issue as with the spare - ac voltage, not DC, down the xlr cable- verified AC voltage with multimeter
Did not have a nearby outlet (while on the lift) to power the controller with wallwart - so I didn't get to test that...
This was all tested with the Lightronics only - the NSI that usually is chained as channels 5-8 was unhooked, and I didn't get to mess with that one.
I did play for about 5 minutes with the NSI 5600 (spare) on the ground, with no lights...I can't get mpx link, or power through the dimmer to the board - All channels power up when I put it in the diagnostic mode that turns them all on.... so the only issue with the 5600 (spare) is MPX link....
Anything I am missing?
If I can't get this going by the weekend - I am just going to put each of the 8 lights on a switch, and control them the old fashioned way....

Hold up on your order. Might want to consider running 300w bulbs. That way you can put 2 lights / channel. Those little packs usually have a 600W/channel load. Moreover, they have a 2400w / pack load. Some of the NSIs had two AC cords on them and you could load them up with 1200w / channel. Make sure what the ratings are for the packs. That might be why you have burnt channel fuses.

As for the AC in the microplex line. Yea, that would cause things to act funny. I think that the bigger issue is that if the manufacturer chose to use AC over DC then he wasn't too concerned if the protocols were compatible. I think you just answered that question.

Lastly the 8 lights on a switch is a really bad idea. 500w X 8 = 4000 watts. a bit more then your typical wall outlet and switch can take.

I gotta jet but I am sure the other people here can tell you more about all of this.

kw

 

[banditj13]

That might be why you have burnt channel fuses.

Actually - turns out we did not have any burnt fuses - 'cept in the spare 5600

2 lights per channel is not a concern right now - the stage is small, and the 8 lights are more than plenty of light.

The dimmers are rated 2400w total/600w channel, we are running 500w total a channel so a total of 2000 watts on each dimmer

At the beginning of the year, I am going to requisition for new dimmer packs adn a better control board as well - at that time I might consider re working some of the lights/wattages/types/etc

Lastly the 8 lights on a switch is a really bad idea. 500w X 8 = 4000 watts. a bit more then your typical wall outlet and switch can take.
I gotta jet but I am sure the other people here can tell you more about all of this.
kw

What I meant was each light would be on it's own switch totaling 8 switches for 8 lights- the switches are rated at 20 amp, on a 20 amp power circuit - 20 amp should theorecticly carry 2200-2400 watts max, right?



The stage we are using is only about 14 foot deep and 24 feet wide, at the widest and deepest points... nothing theatrical in it's setup.
The most in attendance right now is 150 per sunday, and our sunday mornings do not involve the need for dynamic lighting... so the dimmers are only used if we are doing a drama or special event.

 

[banditj13]

Great News: I got the lights working last night!
4 hours moving around on a lift, and a few new cables!

What I found:
Because the lightronics packs are running AC down the cable - they will not work with the board we have

Since I have a fair amount of electronics/circuit repair knowledge, I decided to open up the NSI 5600 (the spare I had) and see why I wasn't able to MPX link on it... EASY FIX - the MPX jacks were unplugged from the main board

Just for kicks - I clips pin 2 on the cable between the as-41 and the controller, eliminating AC power to it, and powered the controller with a wallwart - same results, as expected...

so, I removed the AS-41 and replaced it with the 5600... set the addresses, and all is well!

It appears the the eta mc8c controller will work with NSI's stuff, but the old, old lightronics stuff won't work with anything except for it's own controllers (and only their old controllers - not the newer ones!)


In the end - I have the ETA mc8c running to an NSI 4600, then an NSI DDS5600 chained off of that.

Now if we can get a 500 watt wideflood bulb in time for the production, we will have all 8 lights! - if not, we will have 7, and that should be doable! - aim the lights, and we are all set.

Thanks to everyone for the help and learning experience! I have truly learned a lot about the world of lighting, and know that I have a whole lot more to go!


Question for those in theaters - do you set the lights to run stage left to stage right, or audience left and right?

 

[derekleffew]

...

Question for those in theaters - do you set the lights to run stage left to stage right, or audience left and right?

Always from the operator's point of view, just like reading). So if control is behind the audience (FOH) it would be SR to SL. (Hebrew operators may prefer the other way, Miriam?).

 

[icewolf08]

Unit numbering standard is SL to SR. Many designers also number their areas as such also. In fact it is really confusing when a designer comes in and numbers SR to SL.

 

[derekleffew]

Unit numbering standard is SL to SR. ...

This is true, and is a holdover from when lighting control was located backstage. It still makes sense to an electrician, standing onstage facing downstage, looking at the lights, starting on SL with Unit#1.

But since control has been FOH for around forty years now, I think it's time to break tradition and start numbering areas with SL as #1.

Where I work, it's easy tell whether an LD is new or old by whether Followspot#1 is HL (new) or HR (old). In the end, use whatever works for you, but it seems logical to me to number things as they are read (left to right, facing the stage).

As an aside, you'll find that many rock-n-roll LDs/programmers start numbering fixtures (console "User Numbers") upstage and work downstage, and almost all theatre LDs start DS and work US. I suppose frontlight is more important to a theatre LD, and backlight is more important to a rock LD, with many exceptions, of course.

 

[banditj13]

The numbering on the NSI's I put up are SL to SR, but I went ahead and plugged in the lights, and addresses the units to be operator left and right...

I understand that FOH means operator is in the same area as audience, but what does it stand for?



Thanks,

 

[icewolf08]

The numbering on the NSI's I put up are SL to SR, but I went ahead and plugged in the lights, and addresses the units to be operator left and right...
I understand that FOH means operator is in the same area as audience, but what does it stand for?
Thanks,

FOH=Front of House

Derek, all the LDs that come through here (with the exception of one) number areas from SL to SR, and most of them I would imagine fall into your "old" category (though I doubt they would like that category). Follow spots is totally up in the air depending on the designer. Some number them based on which they plan to use most often, some SL to SR, that is always interesting.

 

[banditj13]

So... if our light and sound control is all the way in the rear of the house...
so:

Stage----audience-----sound and light booth

Is that still technically "FOH" as it is not behind the stage?

Sorry - I am new to the terminologies.....

 

[icewolf08]

indeed that is still FOH. It would be the opposite of back of house which is on stage and back stage, where the magic happens.

 

[derekleffew]

I never realized how confusing these terms can be to a beginner. I use "FOH" to denote any control area in or behind the audience, but it's generally in the Back of the auditorium. The front of the auditorium would be nearest the proscenium. Even when focusing lights in the aisles of a house, I'll use the terms downstage, meaning toward the booth, as "uphouse" and "downhouse" sound silly.

Since I was a child, I've always had trouble with right and left, and getting into theatre didn't help matters. I've argued with many when I say "move that light more onstage," (meaning toward centerline) and they say "it IS onstage." So I define for them "onstage" is toward centerline, and "offstage" is toward the closest wing.

In the round and in arenas, it's much easier to use N, S, E, W, but can be a chore to teach road crews which way North is. Luckily, at my primary venue, North is almost always Upstage.

banditj13, it sounds as though you've laid out your lights in a most logical fashion, with Fader#1 being the farthest SR and Fader#8 being the farthest SL.

 

[Logos]

Derek, I share your issues with left and right. Never have been able to use them reliably. I'm told it means that I'm dislexic.
I use Prompt and Off Prompt (P and OP) even when in a black box type space. (this assumes P to be SL and OP to be SR.)
I count from OP to P and from FOH to Cyc in order.

 

[banditj13]

Derek - thanks... I am a beginner, and just trying to soak up everything that I can... terminology is fine, I just don't know it yet, and the glossary on this site doesn't contain a whole lot of it...

I don't have a huge problem with left or right, but I have to stop and think about it for a moment...

 

[BillESC]

Both Lightronics and NSI speak the same language. Microplex.

The NSI dimmer when powered up with lighting loads plugged into it but no controller attached will light all four circuits to 100%.

Standard XLR mic cable is all that's needed for control cable.