number of dimmers and channel capacity of high schools
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In my High School we had three racks of Colortran I-96 series, based off of ETC's Sensors. Look the same actually. For control, ETC Express 48/96. In the smaller theatre, its an old analog 24 rack of I forget what, with a couple of NSI dimmer packs. Control is a Leprecon 1524 for the analogs and NSI 16x2 for the packs. Worlds apart to say the least.
thebikingtechie
Active Member
I actually don't know the excact number of dimmers in my current schools theatre. It can't be over 20 and but the circuit are twofered across the room
(it's a black box), and then there are some weird combinations that I haven't gotten a chance to map out. I'm just waiting until my director lets me get a ladder out, the actors kind of own the place.
We run it all from an a old Strand LBX console that I think has some stuff seriously wrong with it.
My old school had 24 Electronic Diversifieds in the auditorium, run from an ETC Smart Fade.
I don't remember the exact count in the theatre, I actually didn't spend too much time there, we only did three plays a year two of which ran together. And the TD was kind of a bumbling fool, who wanted to work at the school so he read through a book about lighting and was hired. He still references back to the book when he needs to do design work.
The small assembly hall/drama room has 12. It was fine except the dimmers were combined with the circuits into three little boxes around the room, and the way they were placed and pointed up I had to reach around blindly to find the right circuit. I then got to block one of the many secondary entrances sometimes with the little 24 fader analog board on my lap.
(it's a black box), and then there are some weird combinations that I haven't gotten a chance to map out. I'm just waiting until my director lets me get a ladder out, the actors kind of own the place.
We run it all from an a old Strand LBX console that I think has some stuff seriously wrong with it.
My old school had 24 Electronic Diversifieds in the auditorium, run from an ETC Smart Fade.
I don't remember the exact count in the theatre, I actually didn't spend too much time there, we only did three plays a year two of which ran together. And the TD was kind of a bumbling fool, who wanted to work at the school so he read through a book about lighting and was hired. He still references back to the book when he needs to do design work.
The small assembly hall/drama room has 12. It was fine except the dimmers were combined with the circuits into three little boxes around the room, and the way they were placed and pointed up I had to reach around blindly to find the right circuit. I then got to block one of the many secondary entrances sometimes with the little 24 fader analog board on my lap.
Charc, I sincerely hope you're kidding. If not, we have more to teach you about the economics of installing a patch panel. I've seen some installations where they "cheaped out" and installed "Air Flow Modules" instead of dimmers filling up the racks. PITA--having to go to the dimmer room and move modules around every time you hang a new show. The labor it takes is easily offset by just filling the rack with dimmers.
And to stay on topic, my high school had two Luxtrol Sixpacks, that's 12 1.2Kw dimmers mastered by 2 7.2Kw autotransformer dimmers. We also had two resistance plate dimmers, so a grand total of 16, for a 1200 seat auditorium, with "airwalls" to close off the back two "lecture halls." Very forward thinking for 1974.
Highschool we had 5, 6 x 1.2Kw Rosco IPS Dimmer Strips, and a Strand GSX for control.
College, we've got a full dimmer rack in the hundreds. What a wonder dimmer-per-circuit is, and our theatre has positions seemingly everywhere, and a large amount of floor pockets. The first electric has not a single repeating circuit, and where circuits do repeat, they only do so once. So, at the most you have the same circuit available in two different locations, which is actually not so bad. Before I got here they had to move around dimmers like Derek described, NOT a fun job.
Just to go off topic more, the brand new Detroit School for the Arts is sad when you consider it was build four years ago. Alot of available distro options, but poor circuiting. The catwalks have a plethora or circuits, many more than I felt was necessary. The on-stage electrics, however, had, if my memory recalls, the same 8 circuits repeating four times. Really had to think when I did a lighting plot there. I can understand, why, after doing a show there, people like Derek still extol the virtues of a hard-patch panel.
However, repeating circuits seem cool when you end up in a space where the circuits are the same on each side of the stage. Was in another Detroit highschool where the onstage electrics were something like 8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8, from stage left to right. Hard to do seperation of source! Mind you this is one of the premier, top dollar (I mean we're talking 5 figures), private educational instituitions in Metro Detroit.
There was also the highschool we rented once that was clearly designed to work with RGBW strips, and that is indeed what they used. So, on each electric, four circuits designated to the strips, and maybe 5 others for specials and area lighting. Actually, the theatre was rather well thought out, considering it was built in the early 60's. All this older style make one appreciate dimmer-per-circuit.
And Charc, extra dimmers are a blessing from Thespis. You ought to find a way to use them, we'll help.
College, we've got a full dimmer rack in the hundreds. What a wonder dimmer-per-circuit is, and our theatre has positions seemingly everywhere, and a large amount of floor pockets. The first electric has not a single repeating circuit, and where circuits do repeat, they only do so once. So, at the most you have the same circuit available in two different locations, which is actually not so bad. Before I got here they had to move around dimmers like Derek described, NOT a fun job.
Just to go off topic more, the brand new Detroit School for the Arts is sad when you consider it was build four years ago. Alot of available distro options, but poor circuiting. The catwalks have a plethora or circuits, many more than I felt was necessary. The on-stage electrics, however, had, if my memory recalls, the same 8 circuits repeating four times. Really had to think when I did a lighting plot there. I can understand, why, after doing a show there, people like Derek still extol the virtues of a hard-patch panel.
However, repeating circuits seem cool when you end up in a space where the circuits are the same on each side of the stage. Was in another Detroit highschool where the onstage electrics were something like 8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8, from stage left to right. Hard to do seperation of source! Mind you this is one of the premier, top dollar (I mean we're talking 5 figures), private educational instituitions in Metro Detroit.
There was also the highschool we rented once that was clearly designed to work with RGBW strips, and that is indeed what they used. So, on each electric, four circuits designated to the strips, and maybe 5 others for specials and area lighting. Actually, the theatre was rather well thought out, considering it was built in the early 60's. All this older style make one appreciate dimmer-per-circuit.
And Charc, extra dimmers are a blessing from Thespis. You ought to find a way to use them, we'll help.
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gafftapegreenia, I think you mis-understood. I was not "extolling the virtues" of a patch panel, I was saying they make no economic sense, and haven't for about 25 years.
My mistake.
gafftapegreenia, de nada. Charc, I understand your pain. Take some comfort in the fact that almost every theatre in which I've worked, I have thought the circuit distribution should be different. I've found theatres with a good theatre consultant to be better than ones without. Remember that system planners are only guessing where they think you will place instruments, and sometimes some guesses are better than others. Perhaps you could consider running cable from where you have too many circuits to where you don't have enough, on a semi-permanent basis? As for your thought that you have too many dimmers and not enough fixtures, remember that it's easier to add fixtures than dimmers. Infrastructure first!
I disagree with this statement .
What do you base the idea they make no economic sense on?
Here in New Zealand we have theatres with both patch panels and dimmer per circuit setups.
A school theatre I worked in that was new two years ago had a patch panel installed. There were over two hundred circuit outlets but only 96 dimmer channels. In NZ dollars 12 dimmer channels cost over $2000 each. So that is over $18,000 for the 96 dimmer channels. But because we had a patch panel this rig is a lot more flexible. Later if they want to add more dimmer channels they just throw in another pack. They don't have to rewire lighting bars.
I agree with some of the other posts patch panels can be done wrongly. Such as duplicating circuits in wrong places.
But a well designed patch setup is a joy to work on.
One of the problems with a dimmer per outlet setup particulary in schools is if the dimmer channel fails you completely loose that circuit. Whereas on a patch panel you just plug that circuit into another dimmer channel.
Also if you are doing dimmer per circuit you are likely have less circuits available to use then when you spend the money on patch panel. I think it is better to give more circuit positions that are usable to a school theatre then limit it to only the number of dimmer channels you can afford at installation.
An amatuer theatre I work in (100 seater) has a very good patch system except for the bar furtherst from the stage the bars have 14 circuits. Quite often you won't use all the circuits on one bar for individual channels. So quite often if we have pairs of lights we don't pair them up on the bar but back at the patch panel. It keeps the bars tidier. It also gives greater flexibility if you decide to separate the lights out. It also helps fault finding.
If patch panels don't make economic sense then the price of your dimmer channels must be dirt cheap. Please post some figures so I can follow your arguement.
STEVETERRY
Well-Known Member
For interesting dimmer statistics, I have attached a link for the ETC Load Survey. It does not speak to number of dimmers in a system, but has a lot of interesting data about connected loads in different markets.
What's Connected?
ST
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Thanks Steve that's a really interesting article. I think it makes an important point to what Charc's question. While the survey found that only 17% of the dimmers aren't being used, most of the ones being used could be half the size. Freeing up money and getting Charc more instruments. It makes a lot of sense in typical high school dimmer per circuit installs to go with 1.2k's and save the money for other gear.
On the other hand Charc patch panels aren't cheap either. I looked into going with one rack of 2.4k's and a patch panel vs two racks of 2.4k's. Patch panels aren't cheap and still require a ton of labor to install so the end result was very little savings.
STEVETERRY
Well-Known Member
The problem is that a 20A SCR dimmer is only fractionally more expensive than a 10A SCR dimmer.
And, the NEC will not let you wire a branch circuit with smaller than 14AWG wire, so you don't get much back from that either!
Now, when you go to Sine Wave dimmers, the savings is huge from 20A to 10A.
ST
Anyone know what a "modern" patch panel in the US looks like? I'm guessing 200 male 10' 12/3 SO cables with 2P&G plugs hanging out of boxes and 96 flushmount receptacles mounted in adjacent boxes? STEVETERRY, would the circuits need individual breakers per the NEC? (Like the Telephone Operator and Slider Patch panels used to have?) And would it be possible to mix 1.2Kw and 2.4Kw dimmers in such a system? How about some 6.0Kw dimmers, I'm sure those would require branch circuit breakers. Or if the males and females both were 60A-2P&G would that not require BCBs?
The cost of the above could exceed the cost of another 96x2.4Kw rack, including labor and materials, hence my opinion of patch panels not being economical or viable. Maybe BillESC could comment also.
The cost of the above could exceed the cost of another 96x2.4Kw rack, including labor and materials, hence my opinion of patch panels not being economical or viable. Maybe BillESC could comment also.
Hmmm, but then I think of spaces such as our studio theatre. I don't know exact numbers, but I know we have a large number of circuits and not even nearly as many dimmers, it's an old Kliegl analog system. In our case, wouldn't it be economically reasonable to install a new DMX dimmer rack and a patch panel to use the existing circuits, or would it be better to just re-wire the entire studio? What if we brought in a "touring rack" and patched into that? Of course, the concern would be how much power we have in the first place.
I should also get some pics of the main TV studio on campus. A grid full of scoops and Mole-Richardson fresnels, and an old EC slider patch baby!
I should also get some pics of the main TV studio on campus. A grid full of scoops and Mole-Richardson fresnels, and an old EC slider patch baby!
So do you have an existing Kliegl Safe-T-Patch patch panel? Or is there no patch panel and circuits are just duplicated a bunch? If the later, cost to rewire would be high, higher than the dimmer rack cost most likely. Talking SCR dimmers here, not sine-wave. As for a touring rack, installed dimmers are always cheaper, unless you want to upgrade incrementally. Are the Kliegl dimmers (R77?) failing? Has the control been upgraded or are you still using the 5 scene preset? And list quantities and sizes of dimmers, just for fun. Every Kliegl installation I've seen using analog dimmers had an unexplainable quantity of dimmer distribution. Inquiring minds want to know. And post pictures, you know how I love pictures.
I'll get your specs and pics! There are 2P&G patch cables, and a patch panel. The board is a 2-scene preset with 24 faders for each scene. I *believe* it's analog. I have not had trouble myself, but I have heard from other users that the dimmers have issues.
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