Oh my....

[derekleffew]

Its interesting that no one has managed, (as far as we know) to contact us yet.
I'm Sean, as you may have seen from the site.
And even though this statement is true for most of our school audience, how would you like it said, as to not to "still scares me."?

No one here is personally attacking you or your site or your company. I'm sure everyone has the best of intentions. Here is the sentence from the site I feel to which most of us here are objecting (Howz that for awkward sentence structure? (Van, call your mother!)):

Bear in mind that old theatre lights are very close in performance to new ones and that, in lighting, quantity is more important that quality,so if the choice is to recondition 10 old lights or buy one new one, then the choice is clear.

Change "very close" to adequate or acceptable.

Don't state "the choice is clear," when, apparently, in the opinions expressed here, the choice is opaque.

"quanity is more important that[sic] quality." Just add "often" after "is". Also, "that" should be "than", so an edit is required unless you want the website viewers to think you don't know grammar.

Sorry for the multi-coloredness. But seemed to be the easiest way. Perhaps all of us simply misconstrued the intent of the statement. Be that as it may, the fault lies still with the original author. A rewrite is requested. Steveterry, as a manufacturer's representative, and BillESC, as a vendor of NEW lighting fixtures, please jump in here.

And thanks to gafftapegreenia for starting such a lively thread! DvsDave, is this a record for most posts in shortest time for any thread? Not by me, by everyone? Response is amazing when members of ControlBooth get riled.

 

[David Ashton]

SELECON $760[2005]
ETC $615[2004]
Any other make would have to be sourced overseas as far as I know, Perth is 4000 kms from Sydney so even road freight is not cheap, so freight is included as we are effectively subsidized by an Australia wide rate.

 

[David Ashton]

I'm puzzled, where in the website does it say"quanity is more important that quality?I'll look again but I can't see it.

 

[derekleffew]

Returning to Gafftaper,

Sorry I forgot to state that refurbishing 10 lights for under $400, which is less than the cost of a source 4 is easy and which we do on a monthly basis, our cost structure is different to yours as our lights are imported and are more expensive.

The price listed on the ProShop PriceList for the Martin miniMAC Profile Black is $2499AUS. Using current exchange rates this is $2212.58USD. So do you have a special deal with Denmark whereby you pay the same in AUS as we do in US? Is it only US-manufactured equipment that is more expensive for you?

Sorry, Sean, if I've come across as overly-harsh, I just discovered you are 14. But you are old enough to learn you must be able to defend statements made in "public." Or not make them. Have a good day, or evening, or whatever time it is there.

 

[David Ashton]

We have further confusion here, Sean did not post the reply to gaffertaper, it was me David and where does the cost of a Martin minimac enter the picture?

 

[derekleffew]

I'm puzzled, where in the website does it say"quanity is more important that quality?I'll look again but I can't see it.

I copied the light blue/teal/aqua text from http://www.allthingstheatre.net.au/repair.htm and pasted it here.

 

[David Ashton]

The link you gave does not give that result and I have not edited it and have to admit I don't know how to, computers are not my strong point, so how you got that result is a complete mystery as I am pedantic about getting grammar correct.However I was focused on quanity and was incorrect about 'that' So on that one point you were correct.

 

[derekleffew]

We have further confusion here, Sean did not post the reply to gaffertaper, it was me David and where does the cost of a Martin minimac enter the picture?

Sorry, I certainly added to the confusion. Please allow me to clarify:
David=allthingstheatre
Sean=Bean

David is an owner (with Robyn, please don't let her post here for a bit), and Sean is a 14 year-old employee. Can he legally be an employee at the age of 14 in AUS?

As to the miniMAC, it was the only item I found on the ProStage list, linked from your site, that I could guess the approx. US price of. One of you, and I'm now positive it was David=allthingstheatre, stated
our cost structure is different to yours as our lights are imported and are more expensive.
I wanted to dispute your statement above. And below, you did it for me.
SELECON $760[2005]
ETC $615[2004]
Any other make would have to be sourced overseas as far as I know, Perth is 4000 kms from Sydney so even road freight is not cheap, so freight is included as we are effectively subsidized by an Australia wide rate.
Are ETC fixtures from Middleton, WI, USA really less expensive for you than Selecon fixtures from New Zealand? Is there an Australian manufacturer who assembles anywhere in your country? I just realized you were trying to make the point, I think, that all instruments are more expensive in AUS, not a foreign vs. domestic price differential. [Okay, CB veterans, under my text entry window in yellow is "You have selected 1 post that is not part of this thread. Quote this post as well, or deselect this post." I'm going to ignore that, as I don't understand it, and thanks again to gafftapegreenia, it's 8:31am and I've been awake AND MOSTLY ON THIS ONE THREAD since 6:30pm].

I think Gafftaper was overly harsh to you regarding whether you could refurb 10 units for the price of one new, particularly in light (NPI) of the fact that SourceFours are $615AUS. I didn't see where you claimed to come in, de-install, clean and bench-focus, and re-install 10 units for less than $615AUS.

If I ran an educational facility, and didn't have the skills/knowledge I possess, I'd pay a "consultant" company up to $500US to conduct a one-day seminar to teach ten of my brightest (again, NPI) students how to disassemble, clean, reassemble, and bench focus 10 of my fixtures. Lights would be pre-mounted on the head-high first electric prior to your arrival. And that's where you would bench focus them onto the cyc, after cleaning. And I'd make sure you had a representation of every light in the building. You'd leave after eight hours, having provided valuable knowledge and experience to my students and bettered my facility. Gafftaper, gaffgreenia, and I will start such a company, and the facility will charge the students' parents $75/each which includes a fast-food lunch, and call it "Lighting Day Band Camp-Are you the First Chair Leko Player" (thanks to whoever's sig that it, best laugh I've had recently.) Only problem is, it can't be held in Seattle, Milwaukee, or Las Vegas, so travel expenses are an issue. But it would have worked at my high school in Ohio. What do you think, everyone? We're looking for "partners," we'll pay $500US/day, no travel pay, plus per diem, first class airfare, and SRO hotel, charged to the facility. For an additional fee and day-rate, we can provide an AppleStar IIe memory control console and instruction, and Ship will provide a Specifications List for your next lamp order, and BillESC will provide a quote on NEW fixtures, including energy-efficient LEDs. See what you started, gafftapegreenia? Van, want to join us?, I'm sure there's place for you in our ever-expanding organization. Apologies to all I've not called by name, Charc et al, no dis-respect intended.

 

[Bean]

Sorry, I've not been near a computer since I posted, as I didn't anticipate such rapid responses.
First with the contacting part, at least one person said that they

I will be getting in touch with them,

but never did, just a matter of curiosity really,
And I will edit that "that" mistake on the webpage, but until David decides on whether to change the wording of that statement, it won't change.
And you miss quoted the site with

"quanity is more important that[sic] quality."

the site says "quantity is more important that quality"
Just to be pedantic.
Any other questions?

Edit: David is the husband/father, Robyn is the wife/mother and I, Sean, the son.

 

[Timmyp]

I don't mean to be insulting Sean, but how is a 14 year old a moving light 'specialist'?

I'm 17, and have been student lighting technician at my school since I was 12, lighting a friend's band for two years, and doing Am-dram shows since I was 14.

In the past three years, I have come in contact with moving lights about once or twice a week. By 'in contact' I mean, operating, programming, and making minor repairs. There is no way I would call myself a 'specialist', and there is no way that a professional would call you a 'specialist'.

Maybe you are ridiculously good at what you do, and I'm completely wrong, but I think it's rather mis-leading to be advertising as a 'specialist'.


I've been designing 10-15 shows a year for the past 4-5 years, there is no way I'm a Lighting Designer. Ok, when my school puts on shows, and I design for the Am-dram groups I am listed as Lighting Designer in the programme. But that doesn't make me a Lighting Designer.

Also, how do you manage to be a moving light 'specialist' and help out all these schools like you supposedly do while keeping your education going?


Hope I haven't come across too harsh!

Timmy P

 

[Pie4Weebl]

wow this thread exploded out of nowhere.

my 2 cents (US) on the matter.

The service they offer is a good one, and whether or not the people on the board here would want to use it is not worth arguing because the fact that they are staying in business shows that the idea can stand on its own and thats all the really counts. Looking at the service it has great potential. Larger theatres have tons of old partially working inventory which isn't working and if they donate it over to a smaller group or school who can only afford $500 it affords them far more flexibility.

Something else which has bothered me in this thread is the immaturity some members have show in discussion. The discussion should stay on topic, bringing up the fact that one of the members of the company is only 14 is aside from the point and suggesting that he might be too young to work is just down right condescending, along with making the "holier than thou, how dare you call yourself a specialist" comments. You guys are going way to far and making this whole debate way to personal.

 

[soundlight]

Something else which has bothered me in this thread is the immaturity some members have show in discussion. The discussion should stay on topic, bringing up the fact that one of the members of the company is only 14 is aside from the point and suggesting that he might be too young to work is just down right condescending, along with making the "holier than thou, how dare you call yourself a specialist" comments. You guys are going way to far and making this whole debate way to personal.

I wasn't going to say anything, but I will now - my thoughts exactly, Pie4Weebl.

 

[avkid]

Specialist (plural specialists)
1. someone who is an expert in, or devoted to, some specific branch of study or research

We could all be specialists if we only did one thing.

 

[gafftaper]

Well haven't we been busy this morning.

-First I hope nothing I've said has been taken personally, I was confused about Bean's first post there and what his expectations where. Now that I know you're 14 it makes more sense... I've got close to 20 years of experience working with teens in both professional and volunteer situations. Had I known you were a young guy I would have been a little more delicate with my response. I think it's great that this is a family business and it's cool that your parents have you so involved.

-David you made some great points. It sound like there are large differences in the funding for the arts in schools Oz vs. the US. Some schools here have huge theater programs with equipment that would rival many large professional theaters. It sounds like even some of the smaller schools are better equipped than your typical customer. I used to teach in one of the poorest high schools in the state. About 60% of our students were on welfare. I had a budget of about $600 a year to run my entire theater program with. I had a 100 seat small theater and a 1000 seat larger theater both about 40 years old. I had about 100 dimmers in the big theater and 40 in the little one that were installed in the late 80's. My inventory included about 24 Altman 360 6x9's, and about 24 6" fresnels. It was probably a fairly typical U.S. school when I got there. However, there is grant money here that clearly isn't available over there. In four years there I was able to purchase 2 dozen new source fours, remodel my small theater's stage, a new ETC express console, all new curtains for two theaters, new audio gear, and I did about 6 shows bringing in outside directors... all on a combination of nearly $250,000 of federal, state, and local grants in 4 years. While I was lucky in a lot of the things I was able to purchase in that 4 years, it was not particularly unusual to get big grants like that. It sounds like that kind of equipment would be unusual in Oz.

-You clarified that most of your customers are using Fresnels. I would have to agree with you that there haven't been a LOT of improvements in Fresnel technology. We tend to be much more ellipsoidal focused here in the states and the difference between an old Strand or Altman fixture and a new Source Four is substantial. I think most of us commenting on refurbishing vs. purchasing were thinking about ellipsoidals. So that's our mistake in not understanding the difference in lighting styles between countries.

-Finally, my comment about if you can really service 10 instruments for the cost of one new one. Again, that's my ellipsoidal bias. If you are talking about fresnels then I totally see how that can be done. I was thinking about old Strand or Altman ellipsoidals that have bent and beat up shutters, broken knobs, dirty reflectors, dirty lenses, and need to be bench focused. We are easily talking about 30-60 minutes per instrument to take them down, service them, and put them back up. With a Fresnel it's mostly just clean up and check that the plugs are safe... a MUCH quicker process.

Anyway, I apologize if my words were too strong. I would never want to discourage Bean's work in the business. Now with a better understanding of where your school system is at and what they use, your business makes a lot more sense.

 

[avkid]

Oh gawd!
a Bose PA


run away, far, far away!!!!

 

[soundlight]

Oh gawd!
a Bose PA


run away, far, far away!!!!

That's one thing that I can agree with...no highs, no lows, must be Bose.

Oh, and what's with needing that external proprietary signal processor?

 

[avkid]

That's one thing that I can agree with...no highs, no lows, must be Bose.

B uy
O ther
S ound
E quipment

 

[icewolf08]

Ok, really pissed, because everything that I just was typing magically disappeared. Anyway, now I will try to re-write it, as it was important.

Going back to the original quote of dispute in this thread, quantity over quality. In some instances this is a very true statement. Look at elementary through highschool theatre. It really is all about the students who call themselves actors. It doesn't matter how brilliant a lighting design you might have come up with, when the parents come in and they can't see their kid's face they get pissed. They give nothing but bad comments if they can't see their kid.

As for the refurb business, it sounds like a great idea. There are plent of facilities, especially in the academic world in the US that could totally benefit from this. So Derek, when you start the company you talked about, count me in.

Gaff, it is amazing and lucky for you that you were able to get government grants for the arts. The US allocates one of the lowest percentages of taxpayer dollars to the arts compared to the rest of the world. Las time I heard it was less than 1% of US tax money that got put into the arts where there are some countries that give upwards of 5% to the arts. So, I don't think you should assume that we are better off than other countries in terms of money available for the arts.

I thought I had one more point I was going to make before my entry got gone, but I can't remember now. I'll post it if I do.

 

[gafftapegreenia]

Well this has turned in quite a thread. Allow me to some up my feelings-

There have been a number of great points made about the intended meaning of the original statement in question versus its percieved meaning. We have all agreed about the usefullness of such a company, and debated the situations in which the offerings of such a company could be useful. Why did this thread happen? Because the statement found on a company's website with little explanation put a sour taste in our mouthes. We have gone through alot of explaining and rethinking, and now have a better meaning of what that statement means. However, consider this: what if this board didn't exist, and we, on our own, had found this quote. Would we have gotten such a wide response and debate, and would we have been able to properly evaluate our first impression? I have absolutly nothing against this company or anyone who runs it, but, like it or not, first impressions do matter, and, quite frankly, the statement quoted and debated in this thread gave us a bad first impression.


Can we be done?

 

[Logos]

Can I defend myself a bit and also make a couple of comments first.

Sean: In answer to your enquiry, I did make two separate attempts to contact "all things theatre" in light of my earlier post. I am attempting to source parts for some older Selecon and CCT 4" Fresnels. I have a large case full of bits and would like to create a few restored lanterns. I received no response so one of us has a problem with our e-mail.

I like the look of what you do. As I said I do it on a smaller scale here in SA.

Here in SA very few schools have any sort of theatre. When they do it is usually a converted classroom with a very small black box style set up. Fresnels are what they use with maybe one or two elipsoidal style lanterns. Most of them would be lucky to be running about 10 - 15 units at most off a 12 channel lighting board and dimmer rack. Most of these lanterns could be up to 20 to 30 years old or even more. There is no budget other than maybe a small budget for consumables.

We do have a domestic company who manufactures lanterns. It's called prolite. I recently bought a 650w ERS zoom from them for $550 AUS.
I too find it interesting that Selecon are more expensive here than in the States but it is true, Maybe they assemble them in the States I don't believe they do here.