Ok here it is for your comment...

I've sort of lost where you are over the 8" 1000w fresnels. I do mostly black box theatre these days, I am so over the pressures of the big world. I always include at least 4 1K in most of my rigs. You can get a real punch out of one wash and it gives you heaps of head room.
I know so little about all the other gear because so much of it is US and you already know how I feel about the Selecon Pacific (love it).
 
I see the point of not needing a lot of 8" fresnels but I'm with you Logos in wanting something around with a little extra punch if needed. I'm thinking about going with 6 of them.

I would love to have more Selecon gear. But those 6" Altman fresnels will cost me a bout $125 including shipping. If I went with Selecon fresnels the price would be around three times that. It's just not worth it.
 
I see the point of not needing a lot of 8" fresnels but I'm with you Logos in wanting something around with a little extra punch if needed. I'm thinking about going with 6 of them.
I would love to have more Selecon gear. But those 6" Altman fresnels will cost me a bout $125 including shipping. If I went with Selecon fresnels the price would be around three times that. It's just not worth it.

If you went the Selecon Acclaim Fresnel route, you'd probably spent $160-200 on the fixture AND the barndoor (and clamp). I don't know what your timeframe is, but I bet you could get a couple units to do a comparison. The Acclaims _might_ be a bit too small for your use, but if you're using them for down lights (and therefore shorter throw) they might be great.

Just throwing out the options.


--Sean
 
I've got about a dozen Selecon Acclaim 4" Fresnels. They have a surprisingly good beam width and a great colour temp. I never been anything but happy with them. What I don't know is the difference the 120V to 240V makes.
 
I think I'll stay with the Altman fresnels. The Selecons are really cool but they are going to cost at least twice as much when you add the shipping and there is that factor of training students on something that is an industry standard... even if it is an inferior product. But thanks for the ideas.
 
I think I'll stay with the Altman fresnels. The Selecons are really cool but they are going to cost at least twice as much when you add the shipping and there is that factor of training students on something that is an industry standard... even if it is an inferior product. But thanks for the ideas.

For what it's worth, I don't think I'd consider the Altman fresnels "industry standard". I've run into Strand, Colortran, Arri, Desisti and Selecon fresnels as often as I have Altman. It isn't like S4 lekos--there isn't one that's "far and away better."

--Sean
 
For what it's worth, I don't think I'd consider the Altman fresnels "industry standard". I've run into Strand, Colortran, Arri, Desisti and Selecon fresnels as often as I have Altman. It isn't like S4 lekos--there isn't one that's "far and away better."
--Sean

I know, I chose the wrong words there. What I meant was that with the exception of Selecon the rest are all pretty much the same. So A student who is trained on a Altman will be very comfortable with a Colortran, Desisti... or the old Century stuff they find on the community theater's meat rack.
 
I know, I chose the wrong words there. What I meant was that with the exception of Selecon the rest are all pretty much the same. So A student who is trained on a Altman will be very comfortable with a Colortran, Desisti... or the old Century stuff they find on the community theater's meat rack.

The C-Tran and Strand 6" and 8" fresnels are much better units then the Altman version. Worth the extra $$, IMO

SB
 
I haven't used a recently built Strand Fresnel. What's different?

I'm looking at the Altman's better model which has a screw in the back for the focus. The Strands are higher wattage but We've already discussed how 750 is plenty for a small space. Do they just feel better built? Optically is there much difference?

EDIT: By the way the Altman 6" runs $100 while a Strand 6" runs $360 at Premier Lighting. So to go with Strands would probably require me to cut half the Seachangers or both Mac 700's. Still worth it?
 
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I haven't used a recently built Strand Fresnel. What's different?
I'm looking at the Altman's better model which has a screw in the back for the focus. The Strands are higher wattage but We've already discussed how 750 is plenty for a small space. Do they just feel better built? Optically is there much difference?
EDIT: By the way the Altman 6" runs $100 while a Strand 6" runs $360 at Premier Lighting. So to go with Strands would probably require me to cut half the Seachangers or both Mac 700's. Still worth it?

Look at the Acclaim Fresnels (and remember to check what is included).

For $170 LIST (so probably ~$140) you get the light, c-clamp, and safety cable. The LIST for the barndoors is $40

I'd really suggest these units, and they're lamped at 650w.

Also, remember that you might have to request clamps and safety cables for the units on your list. Make sure you get enough of them!

--Sean
 
Thanks Sean, I really do appreciate this little debate. So I'm concerned about the photometric data located at the bottom of this pdf file.

My throw is somewhere around 21 feet minimum and at that distance the spot is down to 97 lumens (which is fine... not amazing but fine) but the flood is already off the chart at that point... granted not going to be going to 60 degrees very often but still. The flood is actually useless beyond about 10 feet really. If I were to step up to the 6" Rama Fresnel then there is a lot more power... unfortunately they jump up to a 1000 watt lamp for the photometric data so it's not really a fair comparison.

Hey Logos what kind of a throw do you use the Acclaims with?
 
Hey Logos what kind of a throw do you use the Acclaims with?

I'm putting them into a rig for what is in effect FOH washes in a black box on Sunday which will have a throw of 20-25 feet instrument to face centre stage.
I'm also using them for pipe end cross light overheads at 14 feet grid height in the same rig.
I'm something of an old warhorse and don't get the tape measure out much. I know the lantern and I can pretty much guess accurately what will happen in most spaces on eyeball assessment. I do get it wrong occasionally but not often.
At 20-25 feet mid spot I get pretty good coverage and plenty of light.
 
I'm putting them into a rig for what is in effect FOH washes in a black box on Sunday which will have a throw of 20-25 feet instrument to face centre stage.
I'm also using them for pipe end cross light overheads at 14 feet grid height in the same rig.
I'm something of an old warhorse and don't get the tape measure out much. I know the lantern and I can pretty much guess accurately what will happen in most spaces on eyeball assessment. I do get it wrong occasionally but not often.
At 20-25 feet mid spot I get pretty good coverage and plenty of light.

Ahh the beauty of Control Booth... You ask a question and you get a person who has actually used one. I'll use them a lot from an 18' high grid for back and side light... which puts me right in that 20'-25' range. I need to see if my local dealer can set me up with a little shootout.
 
I just had a little side chat with Logos about the photometric data on the acclaims. Turns out they are MUCH better with the 240v than 120v lamps.

At a distance of 13 feet the 120v 650Watt lamp lists at:
321 Lux for full flood and 2717 Lux for full spot

At a distance of 4 meters the 240v 650Watt lamp lists at:
648 Lux for full flood and 4531 Lux for full spot


Unfortunately we can't compare any farther as the next point on their photometric chart is 21 feet and at flood the 120v lamp is below the chart.

So there's a big difference in the US version.

NOW comparing the 650watt US version to a 6" Altman Fresnel with a 750 BTN Lamp

Acclaim at 13 feet
Full Flood Full Spot
321 Lux 2717 Lux

Altman at 15 feet
Full Flood Full Spot
419 Lux 4424 Lux

So there's a big drop off in power there too. Now if I could only run those 240 Volt lamps.
 
Alright so a bit about the theater first. It's Black Box. I've got 5 catwalks with a batten for hanging lights on each side. Each batten has 15 2.4k circuits there are also socapex jacks on 24 of the farthest to reach circuits. Each batten is 18 feet above the floor so an "ideally" placed instrument will have a throw of about 22 feet. There is also a piece of uni-strut running on each side of each catwalk at about 17 feet above the deck. A proscenium style seating configuration will create a stage that is about 40X33... (I'm getting a 40 foot traveler) with 13 feet of wingspace on each side. If we were doing a show and wanted the maximum space with minimal wingspace (no grand) I can stretch that out to about 58'X36'. An arena seating configuration creates a 23'X23' stage area. Thrust is about 29'X34'. And Corner is about 35'X34'. I'm getting two racks of Strand C-21 dimmers and a Strand Classic Palette console.
We currently own 16 Source Four 23-50 Zooms and 2 Selecon Pacific Rama PC's.
So here's the main lighting part of my shopping list:
60 Source Four Ellipsoidals with 575X lamps and the following lens tubes:
48 @ 36 degree, 24 @ 26 degree, 12 @ 50 degree, 6 @ 19 degree,
and 4 @ 70 degree
24 Source Four PAR-EA with 575x lamps
12 Altman 175Q 8" fresnels with 1000W BVT lamps
48 Altman 165Q 6" fresnels with 750 BTN lamps
8 Altman PAR 64's with NSP and MFL lamps
12 Selecon 23-50 zooms specificly for gobos and transparency projection
18 Altman FC1 Cyclights with 1500W FDB lamps and 3 Cell Yokes
4 Inky's
16 Seachanger's for the Source 4's
12 Wybron Nexera Wash lights
2 Martin Mac 700 Profile's
2 Rosco Infinity animation systems with 5 discs each
4 I-cues
4 Right Arms
2 Gam indexable double rotators
2 Gam non-indexable double rotators
4 Elation UV Wash lights
Barndoors for everything.
200 sheets of Gel
50 steel gobos
24 Rosco Colorizers
24 Rosco Image Glass
4 drop in Iris
2 City Theatrical Image mulitplexers
4 Strand Non-dim dimmer packs
5 Strand Ethernet/DMX nodes
1 Wybron PS-600 powersupply
Lot's of power and DMX cable and other small stuff like side arms, top hats, color extenders etc...
-A color laser printer to be able to print color transparencies for the Selecons
-Vectorworks and Lightwright
-24" HP color plotter printer (I wanted the 42" but there isn't enough space in my office).
That's the lighting part of the package. I've also got shop tools, music, fog machines, rigging gear, a scaffold, and a lot of other stuff... this is just the lighting equipment.
I'm particularly curious about feedback on:
-My balance of Fresnels vs S4' PARS
-the heavy lean on 6" fresnels over 8"
-the lack of strips... I decided to cut them and go with more fresnels and cyc lights instead
-barndoors do I need one for EVERY fresnel or maybe only 75%
-going with Nexeras for wash lights but Seachangers for spots.

I'm late to the game.....and havent' read everyone's reply..but here's my nickel.
Personally I'm about 50/50 with your fresnel vs S4 Par...par of me really wants to tell you to ditch the S4 Pars for Parnels but I can see why you'd want the PARs especially if you get full lens kits. You definitly need more 50's despite the Zooms. I'd ditch the 70's for now. If you're really worried about punchiness with the 8" buy a handful of of 750 lamps for your PAR's...unless you're only getting the 575 bases...
I agree with cutting the strips for more fresnels....do you need the cyc lights? Do you have a cyc? Sounds like a silly question I know but this is a black box.
I'd probably go about 50/50 top hat and barndoor for the fresnels.
 
I just finished meeting with my local dealer.

I'm going to switch to Selecon Rama 6" Fresnels instead of the Altmans. It's a nice upgrade in equipment quality without a lot of cost... still almost $100 less than a Strand Fresnel.

I'm also looking at switching to L&E Broad Cyc lights instead of the Altman FC1's. Saves about $80 an instrument. Which I will have a cyc but clearly won't be using it half the time since it is a black box. So going a little cheaper on the cyclights makes sense. The L&E's can also go up to a 2k lamp so I can get a lot of punch out of them if I want.

As for the Parnel comment from Grog. I'm a firm non-believer when it comes to Parnel's. Yeah it's convenient but they cost too much to be a PAR replacement and the quality of light just isn't right if it's a fresnel replacement. I like the zoom and hpl lamp but beyond that I just am not impressed.
 
That's vailid Gaff....Personally I look at their ease of use and how well they've held up vs what tends to happen to regular Fresnels over a few years. After spending the last 3 years with 15 year old Fresnels that get left on 8 hours a day in the summer I just like the ease.

But I get your point as well.
 

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