Conventional Fixtures Old Altman 1KL Ellipsoidals

LXPlot

Active Member
Anyway, I was talking with my school's director today, and we came upon the subject of a bunch of old Altman ellipsoidals that we have in storage. He mentioned that we used to have many more, but most of them got thrown out over the last year. Obviously, this pained me, so I took it upon myself to get those things back and running.

Well, if it had been that easy I wouldn't have come here. I looked over the fixtures and they seem to be in fine condition, albeit a little rusty. The lamps are all in working condition, but the lamps don't seem to put out any decent amount of light. It is very dim, and hardly makes it to the stage from our cat walk.

If anyone here might be able to give suggestions as to what this could be and how I might go about fixing this, that would be more than amazing.

Edit: The lens, reflector, and various parts have been cleaned. I'll try the bench focus tommorow.

Incidentally, I have 2 12 Degree Altman KL, 3 20 Degree Altman KL, and 2 30 Degree Altman KL. I would've snapped a few photos of them, except my phone was dead at the time and I didn't have my camera.

Well, again, if anyone could give any suggestions on how to get them back into working order, that would be awesome. Well it really isn't a neccessity for our theatre (we recently got a large grant and got all new Source Fours), I really want to learn how to repair lights, and it doubles as a good learning process because I may go to a theatre and be expected to use these older models.

A little of topic, if anyone knows the difference between the black and tan altman 6" fresnels, that would be cool too.
 
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While not the best fixture (arguably inferior to the 360Q), the 1KL can be a useful lighting tool. Since replacement parts are no more, hoard your parts!

Some suggestions on getting more light to the stage:

First thing's first. How clean are those lenses? This will make a difference. Maybe not dramatic, but you need all you can get!

What is the condition/cleanliness of the reflector?

Have you played around with the bench focus any? That little knob on the back controls the lamp center adjustment, and the knobs on the side adjust how much the lamp protrudes through the reflector. With the fixture on, GENTLY loosen the knobs and slowly pull the entire rear housing forward and backward. You will find a "sweet spot", but be careful not to pull the entire housing off the fixture. Find that sweet spot and lock her down. I would do this and then center the lamp. Loosen the center knob and move it side to side, kind of like a joystick. You will see the hot spot moving around. Try to get it in the center of the beam. You may then want to readjust the peak/flat (side knobs) so the field is now bright, yet as even as possible (you may have to make some compromises).

Black and tan fresnels:
Age. That's almost it.

The tan fresnels were optimized for incandescent lamps, so the reflector will be different. In the tan fixtures I have seen, there is a large reflective plate, with a small reflector dish in the center, right at the filament. These will still work with up to a 750w quartz lamp, given the reflector isn't baked.

The lenses were also different (wider concentric rings on the old fixtures) but this probably has nothing to do with the lamp used, and more about lens refinement over time, in general. I have found output to be about the same. The newer black fresnels have a finer stippled back and tighter rings, plus a larger aluminum spherical reflector.

Other than that, they are very similar. The older units did seem better constructed though.

By the way, the black fresnels are Altman 65Q, while the brown units are the older Altman 65's (pre-quartz) most likely. Don't take this as gospel though, Altman was still painting their fixtures brown well in to the quartz era.
 
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The 1KL series weren't terrible, just clunky. Like a lot of things from Yonkers, they are not as good as the more expensive stuff of that era from Strand and Colortran but did have attempts by Altman at some innovation. One thing was the off-set shutter, with the handle at a 45 degree angle, supposedly to allow for better cut angles on the theory you could easily remove the shutter and re-insert at a 90 degree angle. Problem was finding the ****ed shutter slot while on a ladder in the dark.

The use of the FEL 1000w lamp was what drove the fixture size and why they today, make great boat anchors.

I woudn't throw them out, you could use them for curtain warmers, backstage running lights (from the grid) or something equally non-demanding.
 
Black and tan means nothing, except age. If your 65Q's aren't actually Altman's, but one of the many companies they copied/that copied Altman, the number of rings in the Fresnel and the type of stippling on the back of the lens may be different. This can lead to different beam qualities.

The 65 used a larger reflector, and for a while, the 65Q used a small cup reflector on a pebbled metallic round. However, in the newest 65Q's, they've gone back to the old reflector.

Also,
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gafftapegreenia, I almost posted that pic, but I just knew you would rather do the honors ;)

And thanks for the clarifications on the reflector. Most of the brown 65Q's I've seen have this cup reflector, but I had forgotten about the fact that I have also seen some earlier black models with the same reflector. One thing I find interesting is that the older generation lenses with the looser rings and larger (~1.5") "bull's eye" perform very similarly to the newer lenses with the tighter rings and smaller (~3/4-1") bull's eye. I'm sure that if I looked hard enough, I'd find something, like perhaps a tighter spot setting on the newer units. Never was inclined to do much of a shootout when I had both units side-by-side.
 
While not the best fixture (arguably inferior to the 360Q), the 1KL can be a useful lighting tool. Since replacement parts are no more, hoard your parts!

Some suggestions on getting more light to the stage:

First thing's first. How clean are those lenses? This will make a difference. Maybe not dramatic, but you need all you can get!

What is the condition/cleanliness of the reflector?

Have you played around with the bench focus any? That little knob on the back controls the lamp center adjustment, and the knobs on the side adjust how much the lamp protrudes through the reflector. With the fixture on, GENTLY loosen the knobs and slowly pull the entire rear housing forward and backward. You will find a "sweet spot", but be careful not to pull the entire housing off the fixture. Find that sweet spot and lock her down. I would do this and then center the lamp. Loosen the center knob and move it side to side, kind of like a joystick. You will see the hot spot moving around. Try to get it in the center of the beam. You may then want to readjust the peak/flat (side knobs) so the field is now bright, yet as even as possible (you may have to make some compromises).

Black and tan fresnels:
Age. That's almost it.

The tan fresnels were optimized for incandescent lamps, so the reflector will be different. In the tan fixtures I have seen, there is a large reflective plate, with a small reflector dish in the center, right at the filament. These will still work with up to a 750w quartz lamp, given the reflector isn't baked.

The lenses were also different (wider concentric rings on the old fixtures) but this probably has nothing to do with the lamp used, and more about lens refinement over time, in general. I have found output to be about the same. The newer black fresnels have a finer stippled back and tighter rings, plus a larger aluminum spherical reflector.

Other than that, they are very similar. The older units did seem better constructed though.

By the way, the black fresnels are Altman 65Q, while the brown units are the older Altman 65's (pre-quartz) most likely. Don't take this as gospel though, Altman was still painting their fixtures brown well in to the quartz era.

I have parts and fixtures to salvage from (off line). Agreed on the cleaning of the lenses, reflector and bench focus, my main concern would be with the shutters. Caution on the bench focus, first get a in some way hard edge to the beam of light, than adjust it. If you cannot get that hard edge, lamp filament centering isn't yet the problem, look towards the seat height of the lamp and base in relation towards its focus up or down in relation to the reflector.

A reading of a Altman 360Q manual on bench focusing that lighting fixture would be of use for bench focusing this fixture type for a broad sense of how to get the bench focus. Also cleaning tips would be similar. I agree that your output problems are probably much due to bench focus on the other hand.

Look at the lamp's pins and socket to the fixture. Anything blackened or arched? Resistance to current flow could also play a factor in seeming what you saw and or should be inspected or replaced anyway in both cases. Add to that, taking apart the fixture and beyond the shutters probably in need of work or replacement, many more parts probably need a bit of work and re-painting.

Good project should be easy enough to work on but a bit of a complex fixture - remember where you got your parts from or take it in stages.



On the Fresnel dates, I think Les above has mostly seen modern upgraded Fresnel reflector assemblies as that inner disc seemingly in description is what is currently sold for reflector. Don't know persay on lenses, Altman lenses to minds eye seem the same over the years for that brand but I could be wrong and am often at times. For me in dating the Fresnel or other fixture, often in the brown seriese about seeing the holes in the casting for how it was wired for telling the age of it. That and seeing the socket by brand in color or depth of reflector. Deeper reflectors in the past. As above, often it don't matter much if only a few degrees - the fixtures will be the same mostly.

Below is dating if of help from my own collection in what I have gathered for age over the last year or few. I have been in direct contact with Altman over the past year... still waiting on a better than "I think" dating from them from any one of a number of sources out of them on a number of fixtures. At some point over the years for the "Brown series, the casting was changed from un-grounded two hole grommeted holes, to grounded but still grommeted, to single hole cord grip type hole. That's unknown info as to when they upgraded one to another, by 1979 it could be expected the brown series got changed out of three hole asbestos to single hole SPT type cable in a jacket with single cord grip though.

Altman #65, 6" Fresnel c.1958-1962 Altman Texture Black (similar to Century)
Altman #65, 6" Fresnel c.1962-1974 and thru 1993 (debatable 1991 for black) - Altman Hammertone Brown
Altman #65Q 6" Fresnel c.1993 - Altman Semi-Gloss Black
Altman #1KAF-MPF 6" Fresnel c.1991 - Altman Texture Black

Many dates were in part gained thru my #100, 3" Fresnel collection for start point. I know for instance I have some 1962 Altman Brown Inkies that came out of the 1962 World's Fair. It's without doubt accurate in noting where they came from by the seller, and by than it was a bi-pin BA-15D (dual contact bayonet) base to them which these used by way of another source in book listing such a lamp by 1962. Both came with that type of dual contact socket. One of them got a #99 framing lens added to it as proper, the other stayed origional.

Altman Brown could have been introduced as a color before than but not by many years if standardized color. Other books from around 1958-60 that don't note such a lamp. I also have the above Altman texture black 6" Fresnel and a similar BA-15s (Single Contact Bayonet) based inkie saying that somewhere between the known date of 1962 and Altman's founding in 1953, they were of a texture black in color. Beyond that, recently got in another Inkie that's older than any others. Clearly an Altman Inkie but older than the other in details. There has been generations of Altman Fresnels in use (see other post and photo TBA on the Inkie.)

Not totally firm on when Altman went brown - known to be 1962, but could have been a few years earlier - two or four at most. How it was wired though would be a dating thing of use. This as with the brand and color of socket and how much deeper the reflector is.

For any gear - look at the socket and lamp to observe condition for it. Many older ones can be saved, but many no matter the condition need some attention. Just because it seems to work now, don't mean any gear is in good condition. Suspect of all gear black or brown.

Side note, my oldest Inkie was using a silvered steel reflector seemingly... Alzark process for aluminum and indeed by the 50's more normal painted edge or not 6" Fresnel reflectors were normally aluminum. The aluminum reflector has been out since 1929 but not everyone bought into it for all fixtures yet. This Inkie is silvered instead of aluminum, the first I think Altman Inke reflector was silver plated steel or even aluminum - not Alzark aluminum in the way it cleaned up.


On your 6" Fresnels, a starting point on dating them is in how many holes are in the rear for wiring, and the brand of socket used as a little less easy to tell but has some definition in age. Of the three types of Altman Brown I note by way of how it was wired, within a period, it could be refined by date.
 
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gafftapegreenia, I almost posted that pic, but I just knew you would rather do the honors ;)

Ah, you know me too well. However, in all honesty, I'd rather have some 1KL's than no lights at all.
 
The altmans are really heavy, but I think Source Four 15-30 Zooms weigh more and they're certainly larger. On the other hand, the 15-30s are really, really, useful and versatile so I guess it makes up for the fact that they weigh so much.

We seem to be okay on replacement parts because apparently the things were salvaged of anything that could possibly have a forseeable purpose. As for those of you who said that they were worthless, please not I don't honestly expect to be able to use them conventionally. I simply hope to repair them to increase my knowledge of fixtures in general, and possibly as demonstrator lanterns to teach people how to focus, etc.
 
Sorry, computer timeout error.
 
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I don't honestly expect to be able to use them conventionally.

There are many theatres out there who use 1KL's as their primary stock, so you could absolutely use them conventionally. Don't expect awesome results, but for that "one more ellipsoidal you wish you had when all the rest are being used", here they are.

They can be used as a hands-on teaching tool, but keep in mind that these use a rather unusual (by today's standards) bench focusing mechanism, so they won't be good for 'advanced' focusing lessons.
 
There are many theatres out there who use 1KL's as their primary stock, so you could absolutely use them conventionally. Don't expect awesome results, but for that "one more ellipsoidal you wish you had when all the rest are being used", here they are.

They can be used as a hands-on teaching tool, but keep in mind that these use a rather unusual (by today's standards) bench focusing mechanism, so they won't be good for 'advanced' focusing lessons.

My Kindom for another Leko I have spoken in the past... Education is good also. Helps stop the world of if not S-4... Oh' I just cannot exist.

Side note, the Altman #660 10" Beam Projector c.1975 Bob Segar Tour in collection was black in color - I chipped paint to ensure origional color. Ths as with researching down to the buyer of the fixtures in noting the date and tour they were bought for. I also believe some steel PAR cans from them date way back to 1968' in era as also black.

Altman brown for Lekos is known for in the 70's but possibly earler they switched to black in perhaps following the 360Q series for alll other fixtures. Personally, I was a stage designer back than thus don't know for sure when Altman switched to black.
 
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Personally, I was a stage designer back than thus don't know for sure when Altman switched to black.

Sometime after '87, I know for sure -- after they went axial. My elementary school was built in 1987 and they had (and still use) five brown Altman 6x9 axials FOH. Haven't been touched other than relamps since they were hung. Dust them off and there's probably not a scratch on them.
 
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Mistype on my part, I didn't get into design until the late 80's.

Got some green spread beam lenses for that type of fixture you can have if you want them.
 

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