Outside Groups

TNasty

Active Member
Hey all,
I'm sure most of you have dealt with this issue many times before...

Outside Performance Groups

*Dun dun dunnn*

How do you all typically handle guest groups, especially those with guest technicians?

I've had a fair share in my past couple years of technical work (mostly consisting of dance groups), some groups are a pleasure to work with, others... not so much.

I'd love to hear your tips on handling outside groups, and what some of the best (and worst) groups you've hosted were like.

Some of my tips are to keep the booth spick-and-spam for at least the first day, avoid graphic Tees, and always greet the person responsible for the group with a genuine smile and firm handshake. Nothing's worse than a weak handshake.
 
Avoid graphic T's? Never met a road crew where at least half of them weren't wearing graphic T's....

99.99% of the events I do are an outside group performing something they have produced offsite. We do no in house producing of original work. Some are presented by us, others are outside promoters, and even more are corporate events that can either have a professional event planner to having a 3rd tier secretary advancing.

It really comes down to how your contract was written. Are they renting the stage with technical assistance or are they renting the venue bumper to bumper? Is the show coming in a professional company or community? Is the show being presented by an in house presenter? All of those factor into how we deal with outside groups. In general, if you are paying for the day you can do whatever you want as long as time allows and you don't destroy anything. We'll let anyone who tries hard enough destroy their own show if they want to. We'll also help them put on the best show possible and guide them through the process. Really depends on what the client wants...
 
@Footer, the graphic tee thing is more of a first day deal for me, since that's usually when I first meet the people in charge of the group, and I'd prefer to come off as professional instead of casual to them.

Since I'm currently a High School student, I don't really have a formal contract that involves me, nor do I get to see any building and grounds rental contracts. If it's something I'm doing for free (such as a presentation, or anything where I just need to make sure they get a working microphone), I'll just wear something casual. But when it's something paid, such as this pro group I'll be dealing with this weekend, "Groove Dance", who run a three day long dance competition and are on a cross-country tour, I try to make a decent attempt to look like I care.

To sum it all up, I usually only know that a client will want certain things (projector, a wireless handheld mic, etc...) until I meet them the day of.
 
Since I'm currently a High School student, I don't really have a formal contract that involves me, nor do I get to see any building and grounds rental contracts. If it's something I'm doing for free (such as a presentation, or anything where I just need to make sure they get a working microphone), I'll just wear something casual. But when it's something paid, such as this pro group I'll be dealing with this weekend, "Groove Dance", who run a three day long dance competition and are on a cross-country tour, I try to make a decent attempt to look like I care.
Just because you haven't seen it doesnt mean there isn't a contract though and if you're getting paid its likely you're a PART of that contract. When I have had students work for me for a company I didn't show them the contract but would give them "it spells out A, B, and C" so that they aren't going in blind and know what the group would be expecting of them and the facility. If you're the one working without faculty involved, you're the representative for the school, which is a bunch of weight and should have someone's contact should something go wrong or they start pushing for things that weren't agreed upon. Any group paying for the space should have someone who has an idea of what they asked for. Some people spend a load and its a drop in the bucket, some are community groups, Ymca productions, or local dance schools who scraped the money together. Both scenarios can be rough because the folks with money will often expect a lot and higher quality because they paid for it, and the smaller groups will still expect the same because often what they paid is a huge amount of money for them too and these shows bring in a decent chunk of their operating budgets, therefore making it more tense or stressful for them.

That being said, my wife rents theatres for all of her shows and one school stipulates a paid student will run the lights and as a whole the girl they have shows up pretty clueless, though she's used to my wifes group and knows from experience what to expect now.

TLDR: you're on the right track. If you're the schools "guy" try to find out as much as you can in advance and know when to not let a group ask you for more than a contract stipulated, just because they had an idea last minute. I'm glad to be mostly out of that world, I had one recurring group that I started refusing to work with unless they paid an additional $10 an hour "hazard pay" on top of my normal rate.
 
@josh88, here's something you might be able to figure out.

So here's an interesting predicament that's going on right now.

So the dance group that's coming in this weekend doesn't want to pay for anybody, since "they have their own lighting designer". There's several issues with this. First, all groups are being instructed to not touch the lights, as they have been set to accommodate all groups and classes for the remainder of the year. Second, the group had messed with the system (both sound and light) when we hosted them just a couple weeks ago, which resulted in several hours of troubleshooting and reconfiguring on the school's end. Third of all, props and utilities backstage have gone missing or broken (from them, and other groups. One time they tore our cyc curtain, and they simply refused to pay for repairs or a replacement).

The school's activities coordinator is completely on board with getting the group to pay for one of the school's technicians to be an attendant and make sure they don't mess anything up, but the dance group simply isn't. The coordinator is even trying to make the group understand that this is a fee associated with renting the space and using the equipment, even if they don't need the school to supply somebody to operate the equipment.

I'm not saying that the group is being a big hassle to work with, but when their technicians don't listen to the host technicians (and supervisors), it seems like they need somebody to keep a close eye on them. And we're not talking a 2-3 hour event that I wouldn't mind sitting through for free while I do my homework, it's three days long- it only makes sense that if you messed something up, that you should pay for the 40 hours of supervision.

What should the school do regarding this? These guys are on a national tour, and they've got loads of their own equipment, they clearly have the money to spend on this.
 
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Yeah sorry. Paying for supervision is almost definitely going to be part of the contract.

There is simply too much to go wrong in all aspects (especially liability) to leave them in there without any host technicians...
 
This is a simple one. It's your venue so it's your rules. If the contract they signed specifies mandatory technical services then they have the option to accept your terms or go somewhere else. They don't get to decide after the fact that they aren't going to pay.

That said, this isn't your problem to solve. It's the venue booking manager, whoever that would be in the school.
 
I wouldn't of booked them again until they paid for the repairs. Simple enough.
 
This is a simple one. It's your venue so it's your rules. If the contract they signed specifies mandatory technical services then they have the option to accept your terms or go somewhere else. They don't get to decide after the fact that they aren't going to pay.

That said, this isn't your problem to solve. It's the venue booking manager, whoever that would be in the school.
Agreed. If they've proven that they need extra supervision, then supervision will be required and added to their contract.

Additionally, if an outside group put a hole in my cyc, you better believe their getting charged for the repair costs. If they don't pay, then they won't be coming back.

I can't speak for this specific group, but in my experience, events like this are just cash grabs that will come to town abuse your facility and leave with a whole lot of registration fees padding their pockets. I personally won't work with these types of organizations or allow them in my spaces. I once had a bad experience where we denied a groups request to rent our facility and then four or five months later I start getting calls that they have been advertising a competition at my venue. I was already booked that weekend for a dance recital so that made for an interesting weekend.....

As for the original question asking for tips.

I agree 100% with no black ts when you meet the client. For me, I am a very young looking 31 year old running the high school performing arts spaces so if I'm not dressed nicely I tend to get treated like a hs student and that just gets old. Also, I like to set the tone that they are dealing with a professional. That being said, I usually have a more casual outfit on hand if I'm going to be running around a rehearsal or setting lights but for the first meeting I make sure my students and I are at least dressed business casual. It has the added bonus of the fact that since they think I look like a kid, but know I am an adult, they treat my students like adults as well because they have no idea how old any of us are. Some of my student techs look much older than I do.

As for best and worst groups I've hosted. Same answer. Non-Profit Indian Cultural Event... Many different groups in my area. Some groups are great to work with and well organized, some groups are Nightmares and not allowed to return...

That being said, we don't allow outside dance groups to book our facility since they are rough on the space and we just don't have the availability so I am very lucky to no longer have to work with dance moms...

As for the dance groups. Back when I ran a space that hosted 8-12 different groups from April - May , My best advice it to figure out what they like and take notes so that you know what to expect next year. Each group seemed to have different preferences and want different things from the lighting perspective, so I did my best to be flexible and be prepared.

Keep in mind though, this is all from a facility manager perspective, for my students, I just expect them to show up dressed nicely and be ready to go with the flow.
 
That said, this isn't your problem to solve. It's the venue booking manager, whoever that would be in the school.
I realize that. I've just sort of been helping guide my supervisor, since he just had that title added to his responsibilities at the start of the year, as the former supervisor stepped down from the position in order to consolidate his responsibilities to just being the district's network systems specialist (due to the new thing where every student in every incoming class gets their own Chromebook, with 600 new devices in one year, it was a no brainer). Luckily, he's dealt with the activities coordinator plenty of times, since he's also the head (and only faculty) of the theatrical department- lots of school productions under his belt at this point.

My best advice it to figure out what they like and take notes so that you know what to expect next year. Each group seemed to have different preferences and want different things from the lighting perspective, so I did my best to be flexible and be prepared.
That's not half bad at all, especially considering it's usually the same set of groups every year, and the constant shuffle of new and graduating technicians on top of that. I guess I'll start putting together a binder of notes.
 
What we do here at our school (board) is that a minimum of two technicians are required to be billed in, unless your tech requirements are bare bones, and it is only a rehearsal rental.

For instance, if a dance company rents the space to rehearse for a performance, and they don't want any fancy lighting, they can book one (currently me!) For that date.

If the same group comes back for performance night, that becomes a two tech event.

Edit: we don't have a clear cut rule for if they bring their own techs, but if it is large enough to merit bringing your own techs, having two is also a good idea.
 
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Let them have what they want, the way they want it. But only after making a LARGE deposit in advance to cover damage. If they bite, you'll get everything they bust fixed (and maybe improved in the process); if they don't you're no worse off than you are now. (Did I say a L A R G E deposit?)
 
I work at a university and there is no way any rental group comes in without supervision. Or a security deposit. If they don't like the charges they can go somewhere else. Someone gets hurt and all of a sudden my employer is open to all sorts of law suits, no thanks. Someone from my staff is there before they arrive and turns off the lights at the end. My staff or I reserve the final say on safety and who may or may not operate equipment. Operating any other way in my opinion is asking for trouble.
 
Dance groups are my bread and butter, but I also have a pretty good working relationship with all of my clients and can anticipate their specific and sometimes unusual needs. Some come in and do their thing, but others need some hand holding. It just depends.

As far as contract, our district mandates that only school-authorized personnel are to operate equipment. This saves us a lot of hassle. That includes the flys, the sound board and lighting controller, and requires that they hire an SM. On occasion with certain clients I've let them have a guest followspot op (particularly if it's a last-minute addition or I can't get a kid to do it). When I have groups that come in with the mindset that "their" people will be running equipment I explain to them that it's just not possible. I do let them run media (play tracks/videos) if they have a guy and I'll always offer to let their sound or lighting people sit in with my techs, but we use a digital sound console and LightFactory (computer-based controller) and I've yet to see any dance company bring in someone that could even begin to understand how to use either of those.

I also explain that they are paying for non-skilled labor at minimum wage. We use HS techs whose experience can range from 0-3 years. They are kids and they will make mistakes. I make every effort to ensure that we mitigate that, but it does happen. On the rare complaint I just explain that if they would prefer, they could rent the local union roadhouse for about 4 times as much and guarantee that it will work flawlessly, but I also suspect that they will not get as much flexibility there since we usually accommodate them with their weird requests if it's not too weird.

Two other things I encourage are that they have someone they trust on headset with my kids. It's usually better when they are calling (or at least talking to my SM about) the show and when mistakes happen it's on them, not my SM. I also prod them in the week or two before for a tech sheet of some sort. Even if it's just a dance list with some colors on it. Anything I can do to build a skeleton cue stack to save them time. Most groups are not proactive about getting you information, but all groups will complain if they have to wait on lighting (which is just a fact of life unfortunately).

It's very odd to me that a student would be dealing with a client on this level. No offense intended, but it's a huge liability on the part of the school. You could say or do something that would unintentionally violate a board policy and create a weird situation. I am very picky about which students I let even interact with clients, let alone handle a show prep like that.

Second what has been said about professionalism. I strongly encourage my kids to wear their tech shirts (with our logo) the first day of tech and if it's a multi day then whatever until showtime, when it's back to logo shirts and black. This way the client can identify my techs and be able to seek them out if they have issues. I treat my kids like adults and employees and they respond in kind. In that regard it's about creating a culture, but that's entirely a thread of its own.

One last thought, the only time I book a group without tech is if they are doing a one-off rehearsal without an audience. Most of the time this is a band or choir and it's just the kids and director. If there's no crowd, I don't have to act as house manager and can just turn on the lights for them and record it if they request it. If there's an audience, it's automatically required that I have techs. If an audience member takes ill or falls or something, I have to be able to deal with that and not run sound for the show.

One last, last thought- I don't book body building shows. They trash the dressing rooms (even the ones that clean up) with that spray crap. And the last two I've had flaked on dates and one booked with me, got the dates wrong and marketed before I could correct her, ended up doing the show at a neighboring venue and then didn't pay them. So yeah. No more bodybuilders.
 
Dance groups are my bread and butter, but I also have a pretty good working relationship with all of my clients and can anticipate their specific and sometimes unusual needs. Some come in and do their thing, but others need some hand holding. It just depends.

As far as contract, our district mandates that only school-authorized personnel are to operate equipment. This saves us a lot of hassle. That includes the flys, the sound board and lighting controller, and requires that they hire an SM. On occasion with certain clients I've let them have a guest followspot op (particularly if it's a last-minute addition or I can't get a kid to do it). When I have groups that come in with the mindset that "their" people will be running equipment I explain to them that it's just not possible. I do let them run media (play tracks/videos) if they have a guy and I'll always offer to let their sound or lighting people sit in with my techs, but we use a digital sound console and LightFactory (computer-based controller) and I've yet to see any dance company bring in someone that could even begin to understand how to use either of those.

I also explain that they are paying for non-skilled labor at minimum wage. We use HS techs whose experience can range from 0-3 years. They are kids and they will make mistakes. I make every effort to ensure that we mitigate that, but it does happen. On the rare complaint I just explain that if they would prefer, they could rent the local union roadhouse for about 4 times as much and guarantee that it will work flawlessly, but I also suspect that they will not get as much flexibility there since we usually accommodate them with their weird requests if it's not too weird.

Two other things I encourage are that they have someone they trust on headset with my kids. It's usually better when they are calling (or at least talking to my SM about) the show and when mistakes happen it's on them, not my SM. I also prod them in the week or two before for a tech sheet of some sort. Even if it's just a dance list with some colors on it. Anything I can do to build a skeleton cue stack to save them time. Most groups are not proactive about getting you information, but all groups will complain if they have to wait on lighting (which is just a fact of life unfortunately).

It's very odd to me that a student would be dealing with a client on this level. No offense intended, but it's a huge liability on the part of the school. You could say or do something that would unintentionally violate a board policy and create a weird situation. I am very picky about which students I let even interact with clients, let alone handle a show prep like that.

Second what has been said about professionalism. I strongly encourage my kids to wear their tech shirts (with our logo) the first day of tech and if it's a multi day then whatever until showtime, when it's back to logo shirts and black. This way the client can identify my techs and be able to seek them out if they have issues. I treat my kids like adults and employees and they respond in kind. In that regard it's about creating a culture, but that's entirely a thread of its own.

One last thought, the only time I book a group without tech is if they are doing a one-off rehearsal without an audience. Most of the time this is a band or choir and it's just the kids and director. If there's no crowd, I don't have to act as house manager and can just turn on the lights for them and record it if they request it. If there's an audience, it's automatically required that I have techs. If an audience member takes ill or falls or something, I have to be able to deal with that and not run sound for the show.

One last, last thought- I don't book body building shows. They trash the dressing rooms (even the ones that clean up) with that spray crap. And the last two I've had flaked on dates and one booked with me, got the dates wrong and marketed before I could correct her, ended up doing the show at a neighboring venue and then didn't pay them. So yeah. No more bodybuilders.
I hear you on the body builders. I've several horror stories but the worst had a competitor who came out of retirement to win his class and then his abandoned body was found dead on the lobby floor once the crowds cleared. The gentleman had been in the lobby shaking hands and signing autographs when fans of a losing competitor knocked him down on the tile floor and used the shaft of a barbell on display to smash through his skull leaving him dead and bleeding on the lobby floor. The police were summoned and everyone was sure they knew which gang was involved but, of course, nobody admitted to seeing anything and this was decades before cell phones. This was in the lobby of the Hamilton Place Great Hall sometime in the seventies. The press reported the facts and The Hamilton Spectator should have some record in their archives. I have several other body builder tales but that was easily the worst one. Perhaps coming in a distant second was having to sit around until nearly 2:00 a.m. for a competitor to 'pee in a cup' for his steroids test result before he could officially be declared the winner in his class and we could finally lock up and go home for the night. And then there's the smell of coconut oil that stays in your air conditioning system for days afterwards.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
 
That...is an insane story, Ron. Definitely in the "I don't get paid enough for this %&*# category".
 
I agree in that booking should not be left to students. (Which it isn't in my case) The only time I'm involved in the booking process is when the potential client wants to see the venue and / or ask questions about our capabilities. At which point I'm likely wearing a collared shirt, or a labeled crew shirt.

I'm unaware of the details of if we have a deposit, or if paying for destroyed property is in the permits. I'll ask when I get the chance.
 
Totally on board with the whole "students aren't administrators" deal. Very rarely do I interact with the head admin people of a group, the only exceptions being when a small group comes in, and there's only a couple people in charge (in which case they show up, and I and the rest of the crew will bounce stuff off of them, such as their opinion on sound levels and stage washes).

I'm unaware of the details of if we have a deposit, or if paying for destroyed property is in the permits. I'll ask when I get the chance.
You might be able to find some documentation on that on your school's website, or the school district's website. I just did last night, and I'll share some of the relevant details.

Some of the fine print on the facilities use form said
"I [who's name appears on this document] agree, in behalf of above indicated organization... we will assume full responsibility for all school fees...",
Which brings me to the policy article I found on the district site. The policy document I found states
"Where rules so specify, no item of equipment may be used except by a qualified operator..."
And
"A service charge for hours worked by school and municipal employees will be levied on all groups using school facilities... Municipal police may be required at the discretion of the chief school administrator or his/her delegate. Other service, such as audio-visual operator or other school attendant may be requested."
So, if the school, or the guest group for that matter, is requesting the presence of an "Audio-Visual Operator" (technician), regardless of whether the request is mutual or not, a "service charge for hours worked" will be added to the expense of renting the space. The school admin's delegate being the activities coordinator.

It'll be interesting to see how this turns out.

On another note...
My friend and I just started to make ID cards for the school's booth technicians (and potentially people who just operate stuff). They actually don't look half bad, and you're still able to be discerned from a regular person who just doesn't seem to understand where they are and aren't allowed.
I also like the shirts idea. We haven't had crew shirts, but everybody on the crew has gotten a cast shirt for every show they work on (which is kinda cool, as you wind up with a piece of memorabilia of sorts).

We also have a checklist that we have somebody from the crew for any event fills out (found here). For the event this weekend, I filled out the event, date, and extra personnel sections, in pen, on three copies (one for each day).


Bodybuilders... I'm lucky I haven't even though of that type of show until now. I'll have nightmares of what those groups are like from now on, even without having dealt with any.
 

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