Conventional Fixtures Pan Bolt Discussion

[Esoteric]

Re: New Lighting Blog Series: Types of Units

If you worked for me I would be angry at you for not locking off an instrument. If you can move a light left or right with the yoke bolt it can be bumped out of focus by a set piece or someone walking on the cats and therefor isn't locked.

There is a HUGE difference between taking an instrument in both hands and panning it and it getting "bumped" out of focus.

The funny thing is I would yell at you if you worked for me for tightening the unit too tight.

All tightening should be only 1/4 turn past hand tight at the tightest.

Over tightening puts undue stress on all the members and leads to premature failure. In addition it makes it harder for the sparky that comes after you to focus the unit. To be tightened a unit should not be completely immoble.

In fact by your definition a light could never be "tight" because if I hit any unit hard enough or with a big enough piece of scenery it will move. Or if I can get someone strong enough (I have an electrician that I guarantee could grab the yoke of any unit you tighten and be able to move the unit with it) I can move it.

 

[Van]

Re: New Lighting Blog Series: Types of Units

Photoflex Main & T-Clamp for Litepanel Frame/Panel Reflectors

can I have $1000.00 now, please ?

 

[DELO72]

Re: New Lighting Blog Series: Types of Units

First off I have never broken a pan bolt in my 11 years of focusing, if you break one your probably doing it wrong. T Bolt for Pipe Clamp

Amen. In 20 years of focusing lights as electrician and M.E., I've never broken one either. The Set Screw or Pan Bolt is always the preferred screw to use for "panning" the light as that is the sole reason it exists. By using the yoke bolt you risk removing the fixture from the clamp holding it into the air. And while I haven't broken a set screw, I HAVE nearly been hit by a falling 6x9 that didnt have the safety cable properly attached when a young electrician on an A-frame loosened the yoke bolt too much. Safety over convenience, any day of the week.

 

[Esoteric]

Re: New Lighting Blog Series: Types of Units

Amen. In 20 years of focusing lights as electrician and M.E., I've never broken one either. The Set Screw or Pan Bolt is always the preferred screw to use for "panning" the light as that is the sole reason it exists. By using the yoke bolt you risk removing the fixture from the clamp holding it into the air. And while I haven't broken a set screw, I HAVE nearly been hit by a falling 6x9 that didnt have the safety cable properly attached when a young electrician on an A-frame loosened the yoke bolt too much. Safety over convenience, any day of the week.

In my 15 years of focusing I have never seen anyone accidentally remove a yoke bolt completely. How does that even happen? You have to spin forever to get that bolt out. If that happens you are CERTAINLY doing it wrong.

On the other hand I have had to buy probably 50+ new clamps because of broken set screws in that 15 years (over 30+ venues with differing crews).

 

[chausman]

In my 15 years of focusing I have never seen anyone accidentally remove a yoke bolt completely. How does that even happen?

They don't have the correct bolt in the clamp? There are certainly worse things that shouldn't be done that do happen. Just a thought...


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[mstaylor]

The only time I have seen a yoke bolt that loose, it wasn't checked on the floor before being sent in the air. If you have to loosen the yoke bolt for any reason, it should only be enough to move it, usually no more than a 1/2 turn. If you have a hand loosening that much he needs to go back to pushing the Genie until he is better trained.

 

[Esoteric]

The only time I have seen a yoke bolt that loose, it wasn't checked on the floor before being sent in the air. If you have to loosen the yoke bolt for any reason, it should only be enough to move it, usually no more than a 1/2 turn. If you have a hand loosening that much he needs to go back to pushing the Genie until he is better trained.

Exactly. I probably don't even turn the bolt but a hair more than a 1/4 turn to focus the unit.

 

[DuckJordan]

After working today on LED pars bolted to Uni strut (the only way to pan was to loosen the bolt.) I still believe the worst thing you can ever do is, if you have a set screw, to use the yoke bolt for focusing. By turning a fixture without loosening a yolk bolt you are causing small amounts of damage each time to the bolt. If you loosen it and don't tighten it (if you tighten it, it gets out of focus if you do it right) then its a bump risk. If i was the LD and i saw you do it, unless your a young kid who doesn't have experience your fired. Because if your too lazy to loosen a set screw to pan a unit, your obviously too lazy to earn a paycheck.

 

[Les]

Wow, overreacting, much??

First off, how does pivoting the yoke damage the bolt? Does the washer not prevent this?

If you fire someone over something that stupid, you will be working alone a lot (mostly because no one will want to work with you!).
Lets not even bring in the safety aspect (if there is one). Shouldn't the instrument already have a safety cable by this point? Shouldn't people never be under a unit which is being focused in the first place? You run the risk of dropping a light any time you hang one or take one down. That's the nature of it; and whether you're doing a hang or a focus, you should have a good grip on the instrument you're adjusting, period. We're talking about the danger of "loosening the bolt which secures the fixture to the clamp", when really, we deal with similar scenarios all the time during hangs and strikes. Accidents don't happen when you back a secure yoke bolt 1/4 turn. Accidents happen when someone inexperienced twists the bolt counter-clockwise eight full turns (or more) and other safety precautions have not been put in place.

Lets get real... It's not about laziness. It's about efficiency and whatever works for the individual. That's really all there is to it. Just because "that's what the pan bolt was designed for" doesn't mean it works well for everyone.

Let's just say that sometimes I use the yoke bolt, sometimes I use the pan screw. It depends entirely on the situation, the orientation of the clamp, the orientation of myself in relation to the fixture, and pretty much just whatever I feel like will be the most efficient way to do it at that time. Anyone who loosens the yoke bolt enough to cause the instrument to rock, let alone fall, is not yet mechanically inclined enough to hang a light.

 

[Esoteric]

After working today on LED pars bolted to Uni strut (the only way to pan was to loosen the bolt.) I still believe the worst thing you can ever do is, if you have a set screw, to use the yoke bolt for focusing. By turning a fixture without loosening a yolk bolt you are causing small amounts of damage each time to the bolt. If you loosen it and don't tighten it (if you tighten it, it gets out of focus if you do it right) then its a bump risk. If i was the LD and i saw you do it, unless your a young kid who doesn't have experience your fired. Because if your too lazy to loosen a set screw to pan a unit, your obviously too lazy to earn a paycheck.

First off as the LD I don't give a flip how the light is focused. Any LD paying attention to that shouldn't be collecting a paycheck as an LD.

Secondly I would never fire someone for doing something the way they preferred to do it. Now as the ME if you are taking too much time focusing with the set screw (which often happens when you focus with the set screw) or can't get the right focus (which often happens focusing with the set screw) I might reassign you to ladder weight duty, but as long as you can achieve the focus I need, then as an LD I don't care. As a ME if you get the focus the LD needs, don't break the gear, and do it quickly enough, then I don't care either.

Finally, I always focus with the yoke bolt and I never move the instrument when I tighten the bolt. If you are moving the instrument you are doing it wrong.

Not do any of those things, and then I will put you on ladder weight duty.

 

[mstaylor]

After working today on LED pars bolted to Uni strut (the only way to pan was to loosen the bolt.) I still believe the worst thing you can ever do is, if you have a set screw, to use the yoke bolt for focusing. By turning a fixture without loosening a yolk bolt you are causing small amounts of damage each time to the bolt. If you loosen it and don't tighten it (if you tighten it, it gets out of focus if you do it right) then its a bump risk. If i was the LD and i saw you do it, unless your a young kid who doesn't have experience your fired. Because if your too lazy to loosen a set screw to pan a unit, your obviously too lazy to earn a paycheck.

Duck:
You may be over the top with this one. If you prefer and teach to use the pan bolt, that's fine. However, if you hire a hand trained elsewhere then he may have been trained to use the yoke bolt, you are going to snap on him for doing what he was trained to do.
I have always stressed to my guys that I don't have the market cornered on how to do what we do, I take suggestions all the time. The other thing I stress is what I do doesn't always work for someone else. The only time I insist doing things a certain way is if what they are doing is dangerous or not efficent for the whole crew.

 

[DuckJordan]

I would ask them to use the set screw first. No comply and their gone. If its my equipment I want it used my way sorry if it seems like an over the top reply but when you have a budget as low as mine you tend to take offense to people who treat your equipment badly. Again did not mean to jump on anyone just expressing my strong belief.

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[mstaylor]

Not a problem to insist on using your equipment the way you want but some flexability may be in order. If you hire Esoteric and he has done it a certain way for a number of years, change may not be instantanious, muscle memory is hard to break. If you have a guy working in a lift and nevers wants to wear his belt, then go for it. I spend 95% of my time in trusses, no C clamps so it is always just turning the light. C clamps come into play with added lekos or other specialty light. As a result I sually use the yoke bolt but I have used the pan bolt. Does that make me wrong or just using SOP?
There was a discussion a while back about which way C clamps go on and the theatre guys insisted they oriented according to plaster line. An arena or corperate guy won't even know the term. They orient according to the lift they will use. Not right or wrong, different applications.

 

[Esoteric]

Not a problem to insist on using your equipment the way you want but some flexability may be in order. If you hire Esoteric and he has done it a certain way for a number of years, change may not be instantanious, muscle memory is hard to break. If you have a guy working in a lift and nevers wants to wear his belt, then go for it. I spend 95% of my time in trusses, no C clamps so it is always just turning the light. C clamps come into play with added lekos or other specialty light. As a result I sually use the yoke bolt but I have used the pan bolt. Does that make me wrong or just using SOP?
There was a discussion a while back about which way C clamps go on and the theatre guys insisted they oriented according to plaster line. An arena or corperate guy won't even know the term. They orient according to the lift they will use. Not right or wrong, different applications.

You make a good point. I spent a lot of time on tour focusing PAR bars with no C-Clamps. Of course I had already learned to use the yoke bolt anyway.

I agree 100% if someone is mistreating your equipment, don't hire them back. I have done that in my career.

But focusing a unit by its yoke bolt is not mistreating a unit. In fact, I would say that focusing a unit by its set screw is mistreating the unit.

But in the grand scheme of things, it is not that big of a deal. There are good arguments for and against both sides. For me it is what gets the job done the fastest and does not compromise safety. When I am on the ladder that is focusing with the yoke bolt. When someone else is on the ladder that might be using the set screw.

Doing one or the other is hardly a fireable offense.

Mike

PS I don't do electrician work anymore (that is what I hire electricians for) so really it is a moot point for me, but I teach all my new guys to focus with the yoke bolt.

 

[shiben]

I would ask them to use the set screw first. No comply and their gone. If its my equipment I want it used my way sorry if it seems like an over the top reply but when you have a budget as low as mine you tend to take offense to people who treat your equipment badly. Again did not mean to jump on anyone just expressing my strong belief.

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Im still confused how a quarter turn off the yolk bolt damages that threading, the C-Clamp or anything else. Now, Gorilla focusing by just yanking the unit around, yeah thats not good... Cant tell you how many times I see dudes do it tho. Also, uni-strut is no fun to deal with in the first place...

 

[Grog12]

Exactly. I probably don't even turn the bolt but a hair more than a 1/4 turn to focus the unit.

Maybe you're buffer than I am, but I can't move a unit that's been tightened down 1/4-1/2 turn past finger.

 

[Esoteric]

Maybe you're buffer than I am, but I can't move a unit that's been tightened down 1/4-1/2 turn past finger.

I can move it without even really trying. Then again, if I tighten units to your specifications no one except a body builder (or my lead electrician) can loosen the bolt. Or so I have been told.

Amusing story, I worked for an ME that like you, wanted everything immoble. So I tightened down all his bolts. Well I went on tour the next week and when I saw him after the tour he said I owed him a beer because for his next show they had to strike the entire inventory and use the old screwdriver in a wrench tick (with the extra large C-Wrench) to get enough leverage to loosen the bolt. And apparently, a piece of scenery smashed into a PAR during the run and instead of the PAR giving way, the front end of the unit was caved in and the lamp exploded.

 

[Les]

... instead of the PAR giving way, the front end of the unit was caved in and the lamp exploded.

Dare I say it, but I'd rather have a fixture that yields to the scenery rather than trying to fight it and possibly losing. So, maybe getting bumped out of focus is actually better than the result of being locked down tight.

"Did the light break focus when you hit it with that wall?"

"No, the whole thing broke. Completely."

Duck; I suppose if it's your very own equipment, you have the right to decide how it is used. If it's not yours and the crew is safe and efficient either way-- can't we all be brothers? The old saying - "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" comes to mind.

 

[DuckJordan]

I completely agree if its some one elses the do as they want. I could care less if its done my way or using the yoke bolt as long as I don't ha e to maitnence it.

Btw the damage comes from another electrician who comes along refocus's the light and doesn't realize the yoke bolt is loose who then proceeds to over tighten the set screw to try and get rid of the wobble...

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[Esoteric]

Yeah Les. I cracked up. After that he never told me how to do it again. I would rather the unit move if hit hard by a piece of scenery than end up being destroyed. But that is just my preference.

Jordan, if an electrician can't tell the yoke bolt is loose (and it should never be loose enough to wobble, that is improper technique for sure) there is something really wrong. Even though my guys never focus with the set screw, they know how to tell if the set screw is loose, and how to tighten it.

There is no excuse for bad technique, no matter which bolt you are using.

Besides, as others have said, I would rather teach one technique (focusing with the yoke bolt) than two (focus with the set screw if the unit is underhung, and with the yoke bolt if it is overhung).

Mike