PAR for Orchestra Shells

StradivariusBone

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Looking to replace the existing PARs we've got in the orchestra shells without doing major redesigns. The picture below gives you an idea of the size parameters, but the main issue is that the yoke is tiny compared something like an S4 PAR. Ideally looking for LED, but really don't want to spend the farm on this since it's just downlight for music groups. The drop-in replacements are a nice idea but these cans are showing their age at this point from burning 1000w p64's for 25+ years.

I haven't been successful in searching for theater lighting, perhaps someone knows something architectural related that would compete with a PAR?

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Looking to replace the existing PARs we've got in the orchestra shells without doing major redesigns. The picture below gives you an idea of the size parameters, but the main issue is that the yoke is tiny compared something like an S4 PAR. Ideally looking for LED, but really don't want to spend the farm on this since it's just downlight for music groups. The drop-in replacements are a nice idea but these cans are showing their age at this point from burning 1000w p64's for 25+ years.

I haven't been successful in searching for theater lighting, perhaps someone knows something architectural related that would compete with a PAR?

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@StradivariusBone Pay close attention to colo(u)r temperature and the heat in the beam.
Most AF of M ers will be picky about the colo(u)r temperature and foot candles reflecting off their scores and most string players will be really picky about the heat stressing their instruments.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
@StradivariusBone Pay close attention to colo(u)r temperature and the heat in the beam.
Most AF of M ers will be picky about the colo(u)r temperature and foot candles reflecting off their scores and most string players will be really picky about the heat stressing their instruments.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

I can definitely appreciate that, but 90% of the musicians we get on our stage are middle or high school kids. The main goal is that they can see the music in front of them and most of the time we pull gels for band/chorus/orch because they don't mind either way and it saves us on replacing blues every month.

I was always told it was a Wenger shell, but the building was finished in 1995. That was a bit before Wenger was as big as it is today, so there's not even a model number or anything on them.

Here's a few more photos to give a better idea of the task at hand.
Lined up next to a plain jane S4 PAR. The yoke diameter is very different, but there's a 2-3" difference in the height of the yoke between the fixtures.

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This is important because while the S4 PAR will fit the opening nicely, the bracket is about 2-3" too close to the fixture body to work.
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Here's a shot of the shells. Guess which one is the problem child?
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And I mentioned this on the discord, but aside from the declination of the PAR, we were somewhat accelerated into figuring out a retrofit due to discovering the fixture that was out had been rewired at some point previous to me and has some issues of its own.
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Someone replaced a socket, but used these crimp connectors and the plastic insulators on those had degraded over time. Additionally, the pigtail has one wire that doesn't seem to have any insulation jacket on it at all. Which seemed odd.

Anyway, I think the next test is to take an S4 PAR and see if tapping new holes in the yoke will allow it to mount up properly. I think it will limit the tilt of the fixture, but if it works, they're never going to point anywhere other than down so it should be fine.
 
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So a little more progress today. The S4 Par is a viable solution with some minor modifications to the yoke. It lined up just about with the square whole for the yoke tightening nut, so I drilled that out and a matching hole on the opposite side for the new yoke attachments and the adjustment bolt works well enough to hold it in the original hole for the attachment bolts.

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It does not want to tilt very far, but it adjusts enough to sit inside the opening in the shell.

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And just a closer examination of the wiring that lead to us pushing foward with a solution. This the original wiring I pulled from the fiberglass sheath. I think we were decently close to disaster on this one. 😬

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Anyway, maybe this helps someone out down the road. One day we'll put an LED in there, but at any rate I think it's reasonable that society might end before the HPL goes out of fashion.
 
That's definitely the right tool for the job. I will keep that one in my back pocket for when we move forward with an LED retro.
 
It's come a little late for us, we've already bought ETC/GDS/Arc but given that Halogen lamps have been phased out all over Europe, I'd have thought there's a large market there which is surely worth investigating.
 
I have a concern about recessed LED fixtures. The spec sheets for many of them say they are rated for temperatures up to 50 deg C (120 deg F). The electronics are not going to be happy or reliable in environments above that. In the places where I would install them, they'll go into attics that can easily exceed those temperatures. This one of several details that the manufacturers and government regulators don't have an answer for.

What is the answer? Do we now have to cool attics, or do we have to end the use of recessed fixtures in many locations. I'm all for saving energy, but there are applications where incandescent cannot be retrofitted with current technology LED, and nobody acknowledges that.
 
I have a concern about recessed LED fixtures. The spec sheets for many of them say they are rated for temperatures up to 50 deg C (120 deg F). The electronics are not going to be happy or reliable in environments above that. In the places where I would install them, they'll go into attics that can easily exceed those temperatures. This one of several details that the manufacturers and government regulators don't have an answer for.

What is the answer? Do we now have to cool attics, or do we have to end the use of recessed fixtures in many locations. I'm all for saving energy, but there are applications where incandescent cannot be retrofitted with current technology LED, and nobody acknowledges that.
Remote heat dissipation.
 
I've seen some that have built in fans. The cob style LEDs we replaced our MH high bays with last year have a little fan in the middle of the cob. Granted, that's one more failure point and a cost increase, but I wonder if some of them mitigate it that way for the soffit-style installs?
 
My work has involved decades of electronic maintenance. Cooling fans are high failure items in the best of circumstances. More so when they are in high ambient temperatures because the lubrication dries out. Even the most rigorously designed electronics will suffer in high temperatures. I just can't see recessed LEDs lasting more than a few years, in some locations. What is the industry going to tell building owners that have to regularly replace lighting systems due to mass failures?
 
Well, and you end up throwing the baby out with the bathwater when they do fail. At least when compared with changing a light bulb.

"How many electricians does it take to change a recessed LED fixture?" doesn't seem to have the same ring to it. 🤔
 
The best answer I have for the high heat areas question goes to sensing the temperature. We have a thermal sensor attached to our fixture that protects the fixture from running when the temperature exceeds the operation temperature. We have fixtures installed in Florida and the desert southwest without any complaints. The sensors are rated for 120 C or 248 F, so we are not finding that the recessed areas are reaching these temperatures, at least not when the fixtures are being asked to produce light.
 

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