Peeling floor

[KacyC]

Hi all, one quick note that I wanted to add to this discussion is that PPG Breakthrough comes in (at least?) three VOC levels. There is the V50-90, which a lot of municipalities no longer allow, V56-90 at a VOC of 50g/L, and V57-90 at a VOC 149g/L. We've generally seen better performance from the "low" VOC rather than the "extra low" variety.

 

[MusicNinja610]

Hi all, one quick note that I wanted to add to this discussion is that PPG Breakthrough comes in (at least?) three VOC levels. There is the V50-90, which a lot of municipalities no longer allow, V56-90 at a VOC of 50g/L, and V57-90 at a VOC 149g/L. We've generally seen better performance from the "low" VOC rather than the "extra low" variety.

Appreciate the input on the paint side. I know things have changed with the paint formulas in recent years and that is causing some problems. Most of us I think are finding that the paint is pulling Hardboard up with it so it isn't necessarily that the paint is failing, it's that the Hardboard is.

 

[KacyC]

Appreciate the input on the paint side. I know things have changed with the paint formulas in recent years and that is causing some problems. Most of us I think are finding that the paint is pulling Hardboard up with it so it isn't necessarily that the paint is failing, it's that the Hardboard is.

I agree that the hardboard is failing and that is a key part of the issue. I just wanted to comment, as I've found several folks saying "we used Breakthrough" but not necessarily talking about the same paint formulation.
I had a recent issue on a project where the Contractor submitted one hardboard (Signature Panels) and then installed a different one (Eucaboard) that they could get from a local, preferred (non-Lowe's/HD) lumber store. It was one of the first examples of delamination I've seen. We made them redo the floor, first testing two sections, at Contractor expense, since it was a non-approved substitution. The second floor behaved well in the test, so the full floor topping was replaced. It has since performed better in the full installation, but there is still some issue. The hardboard is definitely the major element.
However, in our tests, we have found that the paint also makes a difference, and the changing paint formulations compound the issues we're seeing with the surface material. As I said, the research here is ongoing.

 

[KacyC]

By the way, @MusicNinja610, how has your floor been doing since last summer's post?

 

[MusicNinja610]

I see. That is definitely interesting. Keep us updated on how things progress!

 

[MusicNinja610]

By the way, @MusicNinja610, how has your floor been doing since last summer's post?

I have only just finished relaying my floor. I want to give full credit to Matt Evans U of Dayton for helping me find all of this out. He pointed me to a company called "Decorative Panels International" where I found a Hardboard that looks and smells very much like the old Masonite. That in combination with 3 coats Rosco paints Tough Prime will hopefully equal a good stage floor this year.

 

[jayvee]

So, all the test tape strips pulled up the floor. I had also laid some blue painter's tape down for a few weeks, to mark the location of some backdrops in our last show. That also peeled the floor.

Floor guys were out yesterday. They brought two pieces of maso with them and some Breakthrough. They divided the hardboard into four sections and painted progressive layers of paint in each section - one layer in square one, two in square two, and so on. They will come back and put some tapes on them and we will have a grand experiment. They feel that more layers of paint will solve the issue.
Science!

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

They feel that more layers of paint will solve the issue.
Science

Huh? More paint will stop hardboard from delaminating? Seems unlikely.

 

[RonHebbard]

Huh? More paint will stop hardboard from delaminating? Seems unlikely.

@BillConnerFASTC Perhaps they're envisioning REALLY HEAVY paint, the weight of which will compress the hardboard?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

 

[FMEng]

They said that with a straight face? After the next experiment, I would make it clear that time is up.

Do we know that the paint had a week or two to reach full hardness before the tape was applied? If not, it isn't valid.

An example I'd give these clowns. Get a piece of corrugated cardboard. Paint the cardboard. Put tape on the cardboard. Peel off the tape. Is the fact that the cardboard comes apart the fault of the paint? No, it's because it has the durability of cardboard.

As I said before, get someone with credentials to tell these guys they are being dumb. Spend a small amount of money to hire a construction materials testing lab, an architect, or a construction management firm to produce a report. After that, instruct the floor guys to replace the floor or the district's lawyer is your next phone call.

 

[MusicNinja610]

By the way, @MusicNinja610, how has your floor been doing since last summer's post?

So update, I put three coats of Rosco Tough Prime down and my lone tapper is already scraping the paint down to the Hardboard. We adjusted his steps so as to not do damage, but that already shows me that even this higher quality Hardboard is not up to par with the Masonite we all know and love. Unfortunate. We shall see how things progress.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Did you prepaint - both sides and edges - or just coat after laying panels?

This seems like a coating failure, not like the material delamination that started this thread.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Hi all, one quick note that I wanted to add to this discussion is that PPG Breakthrough comes in (at least?) three VOC levels. There is the V50-90, which a lot of municipalities no longer allow, V56-90 at a VOC of 50g/L, and V57-90 at a VOC 149g/L. We've generally seen better performance from the "low" VOC rather than the "extra low" variety.

I got around this once by pre-painting off site.

 

[sk8rsdad]

Rosco Tough Prime is a primer. It doesn't wear well. It needs a clearcoat on top. However, adding a clearcoat will make the deck more slippery, so your tapper may be able to slide from wing to wing.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Rosco Tough Prime is a primer. It doesn't wear well. It needs a clearcoat on top. However, adding a clearcoat will make the deck more slippery, so your tapper may be able to slide from wing to wing.

Many people use this as a finish coat. I did on floors until the formulation changed (the first time - when I switched to specifying PPG Breakthrough - reportedly changed back). From Rosco's website: "Tough Prime Black is perfect for stage floors and proscenium arches, resisting scuffs and abrasions while providing a rich black finish." Sure sounds like they say OK to finish coat.

 

[sk8rsdad]

We used to use it in my venue but got too many complaints from the dance schools because turned their shoes black. Consequently, we changed to house brand black satin wall paint (deep base + 12 oz of lamp black) and have been using that for about 8 years now. We still use the Rosco on the walls and set pieces.

 

[jayvee]

We used to use it in my venue but got too many complaints from the dance schools because turned their shoes black. Consequently, we changed to house brand black satin wall paint (deep base + 12 oz of lamp black) and have been using that for about 8 years now. We still use the Rosco on the walls and set pieces.

Good to know. Currently, we are still waiting on the test pieces of maso to reveal their mettle.

 

[jayvee]

And here we have our sample sheets, post tape. Left tape was pulled after two weeks or so-ish (they did it without either of us around) and I found out today I could pull the right tape (after 3/4 weeks?). Their current thinking is to flip the sheets and coat with 4 coats of paint.

Looking back at this thread, the tape I pulled today was almost exactly 4 weeks. They pulled the left tape after 3.

Because nobody was there when they pulled their tape off, I have no idea if they did it like normal people pull tape or SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUPER SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWLY.

 

[teqniqal]

Have you been able to get an actual test of the density / burst strength? It is easy to obtain a sample of the good stuff (Rosenburg Medite II, 1/4") from Rosenburg (or any other ANSI Grade 240 or 230 / ANSI Class 1 or 2 from another manufacturer). Although a lab test is more definitive, an easy test to perform is to place the Medite II next to a piece of the installed material on a concrete floor, and whack them both really hard with a carpenter's hammer. The difference in the indentation should be obvious. Attached is a chart from ANSI 208.2-2002 Standard. It shows the wood properties slightly different (Grades) than the ANSI 135.4-2004 standard (Classes). Note the significantly higher Internal Bond (IB) (~4:1) between ANSI Grade 240 / ANSI Class 1 when compared to the cheap ANSI Grade 210 / ANSI Class 1. This is the 'flakiness factor'. Although the contractor seems to be thinking that 'if the paint doesn't peel, it must be good', this really doesn't show what you should be concerned about - the long-term durability of the material. It will be neigh on to impossible to get any one to come out and discuss the problem 2-5 years out when the decking begins to flake apart. It is the regular abuse of heavily loaded narrow casters rolling across the floor that puts severe point-loads on the material, and that is what fractures the internal structure of the softer 'cheep stuff', which in-turn causes it to flake apart. Another tactic might be to request a copy of the purchase order / delivery receipt for the flooring material that they used. It should show a manufacturer and model number which could be tracked back to the manufacturer to confirm the product properties.

 

[emathews]

How would CB forums move forward? What advice would you give?
Our facility is about a year old. In that year our new maso floor has been painted twice and sanded down before the second painting (of Sherwin Williams paint) bc it pulls up in chunks after use. We've had rentals come in and we've used our own gaff tape. It doesn't matter what we use, it all comes up this way.
The building is about to be decommissioned from the construction company who built it. Do you have any suggestions on how we can proceed before they don't have to be held accountable?
I didn't have a Corgi, so I used an 8" crescent wrench for scale.