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philips eW Downlight SM as houselights

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by renegadeblack, Jan 15, 2009.

  1. renegadeblack

    renegadeblack Active Member

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    So, aside from my having to walk to school this morning in about 3 inches of snow because the bus decided today wasn't my day, I got a call on my way there that the manager of buildings or w/e his title is, is in the auditorium and needs help with dimming the house lights, I said I'm on my way, but I'll be a while. I get to school, head into the aud, and find that they've begun replacing all the house lights with high output LEDs. Unbearable white light. I don't know how it's going to look because they've only replaced one so far. They're "dimmable" but I'm not sure that they're meant to be dimmed with SCR dimmers. I'm not even sure that it's going to be bright enough. Comments?
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2009
  2. theatretechguy

    theatretechguy Member

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    Hopefully somebody has done their homework in respects to light output. I would love to change my houselights over to LED for the simple reason that changing them out is a chore (I have to physically remove audience seating, bolted to the floor) to get to some of the locations safely with the lift (The pricey straddle attachment looks more cumbersome and time consuming than actually just unbolting the seats).
     
  3. Esoteric

    Esoteric Well-Known Member

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    With a good 3 Watt White LED fixture it depends on a lot of factors. Ceiling height, etc. For most theaters I don't think LEDs are a solution for house lights.

    Mike
     
  4. mrb

    mrb Active Member

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    bad move, and they will fail prematurely due to heat buildup in the cans. The operating cost savings isnt going to be much once you factor in the purchase cost of the things.

    I also think the wierd bright white output of them will put the audience in a bad mood before the events begin. People behave differently when placed in a room with harsh lighing than when under pleasant incandescents.
     
    Esoteric and (deleted member) like this.
  5. Esoteric

    Esoteric Well-Known Member

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    I was thinking they could throw a light amber gel in them.

    But that is more money.

    Why would you put them in a closed in can?

    Mike
     
  6. renegadeblack

    renegadeblack Active Member

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    1) They aren't in cans, they are right on the ceiling tile.
    2) They are (*runs to grab the box*) 2700K color temperature. I still think that it looks a bit on the white side. The guy was here saying to our principal how it uses so much less electricity and its a wonderful white light. I'm just thinking you've got to be kidding me.
    3) Right now the **** thing (they only put in one so far) is broken! I saw one of them talking to the building directror, he handed him a little piece of metal and said "This is why it doesn't work".

    I'm less than thrilled about this whole thing. I wish they would have mentioned this to me first, I could have made some suggestions, mainly to get some other stuff done first...
     
  7. mrb

    mrb Active Member

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    oops, i was thinking they were LED PAR / R lamps they were putting in recessed cans. Now I actually looked at the fixture, man that things ugly.
     
  8. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    I think you may have an issue. The Data Sheet states, under Control: "Line switches; commercially available ELV-type [ELV=Electronic Low Voltage.] dimmers (also known as “trailing edge” or “reverse phase control” dimmers)." It's highly unlikely that you have installed dimmers of type http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/glossary/8581-dimmer-reverse-phase-control.html. Something to check. Good luck.
     
  9. renegadeblack

    renegadeblack Active Member

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    Thanks, I sent my TD a link to this thread so he can relay the information to the director of facilities (that was his title). Also, apparently the reason that the light broke was because they were playing with the wires while the fixture was still hot and they melted something vital.

    Thanks for your comments guys! It helps alot!
     
  10. renegadeblack

    renegadeblack Active Member

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    So I just spoke with the Director of Facilities today in person and he said that they had the manufacturer there and he said that they're fine (I spoke to him, all he was looking to see was whether or not they dimmed). I also told him that what this SCR business means is that the LEDs may die prematurely. He said that they have a 10 year warranty on them and that they'll have to be replaced by the manufacturer if that's the case.
     
  11. gafftaper

    gafftaper Senior Team Senior Team Fight Leukemia

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    Of course if they die prematurely because you installed them to an incorrect power source the manufacture warranty won't apply.
     
  12. renegadeblack

    renegadeblack Active Member

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    I was talking to someone at school and they suspect that he has some alterior motive for installing them, ie installer is a buddy of his or theres a big tax break for installing them.

    I've had to deal with him on other counts and he's just a plain old... jerk to put it kindly.
     
  13. Darthrob13

    Darthrob13 Active Member

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    Bollocks.

    Have him read the fine print about what types of failures are covered. You need the appropriate dimmer for this fixture. The SCR and the fixture are doomed to failure otherwise. And while you're waiting for the fixture and dimmer to destroy each other, the dimming curve will suck.

    Limited warranty text

    Basically, the clause that says "misuse" would apply.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2009
  14. renegadeblack

    renegadeblack Active Member

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    But what I'm asking is if the dimmer will also be ruined or if it's just the fixture. I'm going to resubmit this to all of him again and see what happens of it.
     
  15. Darthrob13

    Darthrob13 Active Member

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    The SCR will most likely be very unhappy and it will be a struggle to the end to see who fails first. My money would actually be on the SCR letting go first.
     
  16. bslproductions

    bslproductions Member

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    What brand of dimmers feed your house cans? If they are ETC or Strand, the LED's prob won't cause any long term damage.
     
  17. Darthrob13

    Darthrob13 Active Member

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    SCR's from ETC or Strand aren't magic. Since this is a houselight install it's possible that these will be run at less then full for very long periods of time.

    Look at it this way.

    Pluses:
    -lower power consumption

    Negatives:
    -could wreck the SCR in every dimmer hooked to it.
    -could wreck the fixture itself
    -really....really bad dimming curve.

    Seems pretty easy to me. There is a reason that the manufacturer calls out a specific kind of dimmer to control the dimming.
     
  18. renegadeblack

    renegadeblack Active Member

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    We have approximately 10 dimmers for the house and we have a Colortran i96 rack. I don't entirely see what you all mean by bad dimming curve, when we had one installed on the dimmer (when it actually worked) it dimmed with the rest of the lights properly. I'll try to convince him again as to why he shouldn't go through with this, but he does seem to have some alterior motive.
     
  19. Darthrob13

    Darthrob13 Active Member

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    What I mean is, at what point does it pop on? When does it drop off? Does it pulse in the middle of the curve?

    These are all problems that can happen with you don't use the right kind of dimmer. The first inclination will be to call cK for support and try and blame the fixture, but in reality it's the incompatibility of the dimmer with the low voltage dimming source.

    If one worked great...even if they all work fine. Doesn't mean they always will, or work correctly.
     
  20. gafftaper

    gafftaper Senior Team Senior Team Fight Leukemia

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    Contact Leviton tech support and ask them for an opinion on what would happen if you run these LED fixtures on the Colortran rack. We can give you good answers from Strand and ETC people here but maybe your TD would listen if it came from the actual manufacturer.

    Colortran is Leviton now right?
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2009

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