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Pin Spots

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by Dani, Jan 17, 2008.

  1. Dani

    Dani Member

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    Can any of you tell me what you know about pin spots, I know very minimal about them, and I need to order them/purchase them. I have used the ones that slide into the fixture, and you can move it to change the size, but is there an actual fixture that is a pin spot? And do you know any online dealers that have any of these?
    Thanks!
    -D
     
  2. soundlight

    soundlight Well-Known Member

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    Pin Spots use 6 or 12 volt lamps that provide a pencil-thin beam. They are usually supplied with a 6V transformer and a 6V 30W lamp. They're very economical, and work great in clusters.

    BulbAmerica sells them for a good price and they have a GE 4515 Lamp included.

    Read this thread in entirety.

    I think that what you are describing that drops in to a fixture is an iris. This changes the beam size of an ellipsoidal.
     
  3. SerraAva

    SerraAva Active Member

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    Pin Spots are generally Par 16's with narrow lenses in them for the 'pin spot' effect. They are low wattage, generally not higher then 150w. They can also be Par 36's, but they are larger then the 16's. What is the use you are looking to use them for? Do you just want cheap little lights, or something better looking/more durable for more money? Also, how bright do you need them? They come in a few different wattages.

    Here is a more expensive unit, with a stronger build quality.

    Here is a cheaper Par 36 one.
     
  4. soundlight

    soundlight Well-Known Member

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    I've never heard of PAR16's with narrow lenses referred to as pinspots, it's always the PAR36 units with the 4515 lamps, as there aren't many other choices when you have the 6V transformer installed as standard.

    I'd like to get my hands on some of the JTE PAR36 long-nose units, though, with the 12V transformer installed. That would be a nice fixture with the variety of PAR36 lamps that come in 12V.
     
  5. SerraAva

    SerraAva Active Member

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    Yea, I have used 16s as a pin spot effect. When it comes down to it, what is the real definition of a pin spot? Does it have to be 12v or 6v, can it be 120v? Does it have to be 30w or can it be more? You can also stick a 150w lamp in a 36. Is it still a pin spot then? It is really all relative when you think about it. I have heard people call 16s pin spots, and others 36s. I can take a mover and zoom it down and iris to be a small dot and call it a pin spot.
     
  6. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    And in the disco days, the PAR36 variety were called "rain lights."
     
  7. gafftapegreenia

    gafftapegreenia CBMod CB Mods

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    Oh no, semantics!!!

    But, in the general purpose of this board, the low-voltage, pencil beam PAR 36 or, occasionally, a PAR 46 refers to a 'pin spot'. As Derek pointed out, these are also known as 'rain lights'. Of course, PAR 36's come in a variety of beam spreads, not just pencil beam. I've always wanted to get a few wide or medium spread PAR 36's and see how they do in the can of a pin spot. Also, I must note that the PAR 36 and PAR 38 are very different lamps, that often use very different fixtures, and I've never seen a pin spot effect from a PAR 38. Maybe I will answer my own question later, but do 120v PAR 36's exist?

    Low voltage, pencil-thin PAR 64's are, to this board at least, ACL's.

    This board usually regards PAR 16's as either PAR 16's (Regardless if they use PAR or MR lamps), or as Birdies. I've never seen a PAR 16 with a lens, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

    Terms terms terms. Is it a template, a gobo, a pattern or a cookie??

    Now, I believe Altman has discontinued them, but they used to manufacture a 'pin-spot' adapter for their #101 Box Spot and then later the 3" Fresnel.

    Dani, I believe you are looking for these?
    [​IMG]

    I can't find a picture of the pin spot adapter, but it's on Altman's website somewhere.

    FOUND IT

    # 101 PC Box Spot

    Similar item on 3 Inch Fresnel
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2008
  8. SerraAva

    SerraAva Active Member

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    Here is a 650w 120v Par 36 lamp to answer your question gafftapegreenia. Quite powerful for such a small light, but you get the idea, 120v Par 36 lamps are out there.
     
  9. gafftapegreenia

    gafftapegreenia CBMod CB Mods

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    Interesting. Seems like, based on the screw terminals, it would be a hazard to use such a thing in a regular PAR can. What are those lamps usually used for?
     
  10. SerraAva

    SerraAva Active Member

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    I have used them in video shoots before. The cans they went in were die cast, so much stronger then what is normally called a pin spot. Here is a picture of what they look like, can't find the maker. Basically a smaller Par 46, with a short nose instead of a long nose. Also, in my searches, I am finding some calling Par 38s pin spots.
     
  11. gafftapegreenia

    gafftapegreenia CBMod CB Mods

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    Interesting to note that website has "pinspot" style cans available as well. A PAR 38 pin? I would like to see that. They certainly have narrow PAR 38's, but the same as a pin spot 36? I believe that alot of times PAR 36's and 38's get confused.

    Did a little more searching, found some more PAR 36 cans. Glad to know those exist beyond the DJ style of PAR 36 cans. Also, did a quick google of "PAR 38 pin spot". Everyone calling a Par 38 a pin spot seemed to be mislabeling them.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2008
  12. SerraAva

    SerraAva Active Member

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    Just got an idea with all this talk about pin spots. Take Elation's Opti 30 or any Par 38 with an E27 screw base, and then take Elation's MR E27 screw in LED lamps for a cheap, LED pin spot, or use the MR16 in a Par 36. Could be done for under $100 a unit. Not quite sure how bright the screw in E27 or MR16 LEDs are, but a 30w light isn't that bright either. Would also generate no heat, and with the remote and MR RGB E27, you can have a little light show.

    I am going to have to try this and see how effective it is. Have a wedding I am doing which needs at least 20 pin spots. Would be nice to highlight food with out worrying about heat for cheap.
     
  13. soundlight

    soundlight Well-Known Member

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    These are one of the standard lamps for audience blinders. I do believe that Ship wired some AMDJ PAR36 pinspots with some of them to be used as single lamp audience blinders.

    These are the pinspots that I want to get my hands on. (Middle unit on page A17)

    Also, SerraAva, take some pictures of the LED pinspot experiment. Those would look really sleek in an Elation Opti 30 can. And probably be cheaper than the OptiLED (but the OptiLED has Luxeons).
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2008
  14. gafftapegreenia

    gafftapegreenia CBMod CB Mods

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    Ahh, Audience Blinders, it's all so clear now. I always wondered how they got those PAR 36's so bright.

    The PAR 36 Ashtray? Those look sweet.

    I'd like to get my hands on some PAR 30 cans.

    Good thread, I've learned quite a bit so far.
     
  15. SerraAva

    SerraAva Active Member

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    More info. Elation is about to release a bunch of Opti 16 LED units. A 5500K and a 3200K unit each with 4 1w LEDs running off the wall. Then an RGB, 5500K, and 3200K each with 3 1w LEDs, but they need to be ran off a controller (10 units/controller) from what I understand. Think I am going to order a couple of 30s tomorrow, a 5500K E27, an RGB E27, and a remote to see how it looks.
     
  16. icewolf08

    icewolf08 CBMod CB Mods

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    I hate to jump on this late, but the unit you linked to that runs the PAR16 lamp is a Birdie. Also, most PAR and MR 16 lamps don't come in nearly as narrow a field angle as pinspots. Pinspots are essentially baby beam projectors, usually having a field angle of less than 10˚. Sure, they don't have to be low voltage, but I have never worked with pinspots that aren't low voltage. Pinspots are more similar to beam projectors or AR111 lamps than they are to birdies and PARs.
     
  17. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    I did post a few weeks ago about Pinspots on a similar discussion thread, including what it took to modify a pinspot to house both a #4596 250w/28v VNSP ACL light and 650w DWE lamp. Not an easy project or recommended. Nor would taking a pinspot and making it into something else such as screw based fixture.

    Had at the old theater some old style non-screw on front cap of the fixture pinspots that someone converted into PAR 38 fixtures. The lamp just fit but they used plastic lamp bases on them. Instead of jacking up a porcelain 2" square base, they used fixture type hickey clip based lampholders that had a single screw mounting them to the frame. 50/50 chance you would attempt to unscrew the lamp and the lamp base would twist with the lamp. Or was it the second screw would constantly fall out by way of not thinking it out so well. What ever the case, they didn't think of jacking up the square lamp bases by 1/4" so as to allow the lip of the PAR 38 lamp to fit just outside the lip of the PAR 36 can, instead they just used crap in the quick and cheap without having to think. Still worse, could never figure out who was hot glueing the lamps to the fixture when changing lamps. Fixtures didn't have much support of the heavy lamps so such a concept was feasible someone might do. Turns out instead the lamp bases rated at 600w even if thermo plastic, were melting down and the plastic was running with gravity down the side of the lamp until it cooled in escaping the fixture. This was hot gluing the lamps to the cans. Reason the lamp bases were melting down was not because they were plastic specifically though a factor, but because there was no cooling vents in the rear of the fixture for the heat of the 120v/150w incandescent PAR 38 lamps to escape. If not the lamp bases, it will have been the wiring and other materials in the fixture and possibly was also. Putting a PAR 30 into such a fixture could work but still heat travels up, lights normally point down - heat does not efficiently escape. Short of putting cooling vents and upgrading the wire to at least 150c if not 200c, such a can is not a very good idea to use.

    Another factor in doing lamps into fixtures is the concept of getting the lamp out of the fixture once spent. The PAR 38 lamps obviously did not even in the outer lip of the fixture have a lot of surface area on the side of the lamp available to un-screw the lamp with. Placing a PAR 30 lamp into a PAR 36 fixture would mean on a pinspot - given it even fit and it probably would not. The outside rear of my World Stage & Disco Lighting Pinspots (with fuses) measures 4" dia. with a 4.5" length to the screw flare out. This would mean given 1/2" or so for the lamp base at a minimum for a screw base lamp installed into the fixture, you need a 4" length between the tip of the lamp's lamp base and lip of the lens. Otherwise you have about 1/32" on each side of the lamp insided the fixture housing so as to get that lamp out in unscrewing a potentially arched to the lamp base lamp at some point. You would for a lamp need to be using the long neck or potentially even extra long neck versions of a PAR 30 lamp so as to fit than - and get no lamp support other than by way of the lamp base. Such long and extra long lamps don't have a lot of variation in lamp type and max out at 100w for the Sonlite version - not commonly available. Not a lot of punch or options for such a PAR 30 lamp in a pinspot fixture. Going PAR 20 in a pinspot would work and not need extra support of the lamp but again, there is not a lot of variation, wattage or styles available. Going PAR 38 won't fit, and further you still need to be able to cool the fixture by way of serious modification to the pinspot body. Plus those screw shells on a pinspot don't take gel very easily, can to a limited degree take a roundel (American DJ as a source amongst very few others), and above and beyond the darned tripple thread penut butter jar caps fall off easily or become stripped or cross threaded and stuck. Not the premium in option for a stage lighting fixture. Though I do have some Kopp PAR 36 frosted roundel lenses that are interesting for use in such fixtures but don't spread the beam sufficiently if #4515.

    By the way, TMB has a much better pinspot fixture on the market - assuming they did their upgrade to them. Such pinspots take gel frames, include all modern features and looks and are much better than the what was it PL-1000 from American DJ. Early pre-market samples of the fixture I had were good except for some tolerance issues. Seems the china lamps fit in being slightly smaller but a GE lamp would get stuck amongst other slight issues on the manufacturing side. Been a few years since I play tested and po pooed them and I'm sure they are good if not great now.

    The pinspot is rated for a 12v/30w lamp. Anything larger than this in wattage would burn out the transformer and also probably melt down the internal fixture wiring. (This much less any modifications to the fixture such as changing the lamp base or re-wiring will destroy its UL listing.) Still as pointed out, it's theoretically possible to install a different transformer into the pinspot as long as cooling of the fixture is reconsidered, that and the potential need of a safety screen.

    Birdies are correct for PAR 16 - though I usually consider a Birdie a low voltage variant and not the 120v cans to be the same. 120v E-26 or E-27 medium screw base cans no matter if PAR 20 or PAR 16, I consider as a PAR can so as not to confuse. You can get some very narrow almost parallel beams of light out of a low voltage MR-16 lamp - lots of styles of them, but not out of a screw base PAR or JDR MR-16/E-26 lamp to date.

    On modifying a typical 6v/30w pinspot can for other lamps above 30w as mentioned in the past post and pointed out above, there is a further problem of the pinspot not having a safety screen. My modified fixtures had one installed at great effort as necessary for such higher wattage fixtures in addition to safety cables that attached the lamp retaining front to the fixture body. The Thomas style PAR 36 can would have a safety screen thus be suitible for the 650w audience blinder lamps amongst other lamp types, in addition to this safety cable between cap and fixture.

    Hundreds of PAR and MR lamp types with all forms of size, lamp base configurations, wattages, voltages, beam spreads and special features. PAR 38 lamps with screw terminal / quick disconnect side prongs amongst them as an example. I count 15 different types of PAR 38 in this style alone. Primary use - mine lighting. Granted such PAR 38 lamps are for the most part not much available these days or on their way to being discontinued. Point being however that if you have an application and idea, there is probably a lamp type out there that does it. Largest MR type lamp is a MR-18, smallest is a MR-8. Largest PAR is obviously a PAR 64, smallest is a PAR 14.

    On pinspot lamps of wider beam angle for instance, the #4510 is 6.4v/25w and 20x80 degree beam angle. You will get about as much punch out of it as a 45 watt halogen PAR 38 VWFL at 50 degree beam angle. Still it has a wider beam angle and for a close up fixture would be much cheaper than a 3" Fresnel to use. Given a maximum of 30w and there would be too much amber shift off a 12v or larger voltage lamp, there are still 23 different lamps I'm aware of which will work in a pinspot fixture - the #4510 lamp amongst them. The #H7604 halogen PAR 36 lamp at 30w/6.4v and 7x4 degree beam angle has 100,000 candlepower which is in the range of what a halogen 500w PAR 56 or 64 lamp with the same beam spread would put out. About 2/5 the output of a #4596 but a much smaller beam of light and while not 5x5 degree, almost twice the output of a #4515 lamp. Again, lots of lamps out there, 23x in PAR 36 screw terminal or multi-purpose terminal alone at 6v at 30w or less. This including halogen verses incandescent versions of all. The halogen #4515 lamp for instance while the same lamp life is more in center beam candlepower.

     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2008
  18. soundlight

    soundlight Well-Known Member

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    Side question: Ship, what would be the highest wattage 12v lamp that could be installed (without modification) in a Pinspot (such as the long nose one from JTE that I linked to) that has the pencil-thin style beam (8 degrees or less, 5 degrees would be great), and what's the lamp code for it? I'm looking to get some of the long JTE units with the 12V transformers in the rear and the brightest pencil beam that I can get.
     
  19. tgates

    tgates Member

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    The reason for the low voltage, as is my understanding, is the filament can be much smaller in low voltage lamp (less resistance needed to get the same wattage of output the lower the voltage). The smaller filament size makes it possible to make a very narrow beam (around 5 degrees) with a small reflector.

    You can buy them as singles, with a transformer built in, but they cannot be dimmed with standard SCR dimmers, you would need a veriac or a true sine wave dimmer.

    The other option is to buy a rack of 10 12v lights that are wired in series. These can be dimmed, but of course, if one lamp blows out, the whole rack goes dark. On the plus side, some of the bars will have indicator lights to at least tell you which lamp is out.
     
  20. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Hmm, given as a industry term a Pinspot denotes a fixture with a 5.5v to 6.4v 30w lamp mostly a #4515 or #H4515 lamp for it, I would think your question already answered. There is no such thing as a 12v pinspot lamp.

    “what would be the highest wattage 12v lamp that could be installed (without modification) in a Pinspot (such as the long nose one from JTE that I linked to) that has the pencil-thin style beam (8 degrees or less, 5 degrees would be great), and what's the lamp code for it?”

    So on a 12v PAR 36 with 75w transformer, you are looking for a 8 to 5 degree beam spread lamp?

    Here are the lamps I’m aware of specifically at 75w. This granted there are other lamps at less than 75w.:

    75PAR36/ VNSP Philips #26278-2 PAR 36, Incd VNSP (4̊x7½̊ Ba), Gas Filled 75w/12v PAR36 c-6 MOL 2.3/4" Mult.Purp Filament Shield 31,500 Cand 2,000hr

    75PAR36/VNSP Norman Lamps PAR 36, Incd. VNSP 75w/12v PAR36 Mult.Purp avbl in Red, Green, Blue, Amber, Yellow, Pink Purple 2,000hr

    #4675 G.E. #37859 (?disc.) PAR 36, CL. Incd. (7̊x40̊ BA) 75w/13v PAR36 c-6 MOL 2.3/4" Slip On Term 90̊ Spherical Shield above Filmt. Msk Up Light 15,000 Cand. 300hr

    75PAR36/RS G.E. #33869 PAR 36, Incd. (HRG) B.Base Rough Service 75w/75v PAR36 cc-6 MOL 2.3/4" Scr.Term 740 Lum 500hr

    75PAR36/NFL Philips #20191-3 (Disc.) PAR 36, Incd. NFL, Gas Filled 75w/120v PAR36 cc-6 MOL 3.7/16" End Prong 2,700̊K 2,000hr
     

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