Pinspots - effectiveness
- Thread startercvanp
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soundlight
Well-Known Member
ACL's are usually wired in series in bars of 4, as they have 28V lamps. In sets of four, they are dimmable. Or you can just find 110V or 120V ACL lamps and use those.
However, almost all pinspots have a 6V or 12V transformer in them, and the lamps are 6V or 12V. The 4515 is the standard Pinspot lamp, and it's 6V, 30W lamp. Basically, if you do things "right", you never put Pinspots on a dimmer, because of the inductive load. However, it's been done many, many times. My theory on this is slightly rusty right now, which is why I asked the question that I did.
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cvanp
Active Member
These are the Par Cans we have. http://www.activemusician.com/item-...n=MBT+PAR+38S+Par+Can+-+Black+w/Steel+Fixture
Certainly not professional quality or anything but that's what it is.
Certainly not professional quality or anything but that's what it is.
soundlight
Well-Known Member
TupeloTechie
Active Member
I second the pin spot, plus you should be able to get them for about $12 a piece, not $20 (not including shipping of course)
bulb america has them for $11 (http://www.bulbamerica.com/Theatrical-Lighting-22-cat.htm?gclid=CPnO88-h3pACFQJJsgodhF7cVw) and musicians friend has them for $12 (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/prod...Bulb?sku=803076&src=3WFRWXX&CAWELAID=26049992)
and both include the lamp
bulb america has them for $11 (http://www.bulbamerica.com/Theatrical-Lighting-22-cat.htm?gclid=CPnO88-h3pACFQJJsgodhF7cVw) and musicians friend has them for $12 (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/prod...Bulb?sku=803076&src=3WFRWXX&CAWELAID=26049992)
and both include the lamp
ACLs in groups of 4 are certainly dimmable. soundman, I've never heard of a 120V ACL. The 6V and 12V pinspots may or may not be dimmable, depending on the quality of the transformer inside. Go ahead and try to dim one: The worst that could happen is the internal transformer smokes and toasts the SCRs in your dimmers, rendering both useless.
Can you tell I prefer the gobo idea, either in the OP's 1KL ERS, or a rented S4-50°?
Given an 18' throw distance to the stage deck, what Dia. of light beam on the stage deck do you wish to have and assuming as described of a sewer, what is this image competing against for light? Again the haze in the air recommendation as with smoke perhaps that is dispersed with smoke. Perhaps for the next scene mount some household box fans about the stage and or grid and install them on a between scene cue so as to blow away what haze/smoke is needed to help see the beams of light in this scene.
On the pinspots... they at 30w 5.5 to 6.4v normally have about a 5x5 degree beam angle. (Confounded GE' Lightbeams program does not have this lamp on file to check the beam spread at that distance but its simple to determine given your throw distance.) Frosting the heck out of these lamps most likely won't achieve a say goal of 36" dia. hard shaft pools of light on the stage floor - no matter what punch is desired or needed. They while on a transformer are dimmable, though you need most likely at least two to three per 2.4Kw dimmer circuit so as to behave.
A Beam projector of course would be ideal as with a PAR 64 VNSP with top hat. This assuming line voltage (120v) normal types of fixture. Lekos - I'm thinking 6x12 or 30 degree Leko would also work with a donut and iris. Given such equipment is not in budget - even the 1Kw type FFN PAR 64 VNSP lamps which would have 849 foot candles with a 7.65' field angle and 3.15' beam angle - renting 8" Fresnel/PAR 64 top hat would further refine this beam of light. This fixture/lamp the PAR 64 with FFN lamp would however be most economical to rent even with a top hat for it.
Given it's just a scene, other options such as renting another Leko or beam projector - but worth checking into, are most likely not feasible given a small inventory you have to start with - though renting some "ACL" PAR 64 fixtures and wiring them in series for your vents with the 600w/28v #4559 or more common 250w/28v #4552 lamps would do the thing in a PAR 64 fixture with such a series voltage system. This would be dimmable. Normally such a spaced apart ACL concept is not a normal thing so there might be a set up and re-engineering of a system price added to the rental charge to do this from the rental company. Should the rental company not have such a ACL lamp PAR 64 system available, any rock and roll lighting company would though it might be a little more difficult to get a custom rental out of them as spaced apart ACL cans would be. (Normally such cans would be together on a lamp bar wired within the bar.)
The #4559 lamp (while fairly rare to the industry these days in use) would have 1,852 foot candles with a field angle of 3.78' and beam angle of 2.52' - now that's tight. (Sorry, GE Light Beams - the discontinued program I'm using does not list the #4552, much less the #4515.)
Other options assuming the PAR 36 fixtures bought...
Could buy the pinspots and bypass the transformer, than wire them for PAR 36, 250w/28v #4596 lamps which will fit into your light fixture and be feasible but a bit warm for it. Would have to run four of them in series in the same concept of would work. Again limitations of GE Lightbeams free but limited. Given the 12x11 degree beam angle which is very similar to that of the #4559 lamp above, the beam angle should be slightly smaller but roughly the same. This lamp would be a good choice even if a little less intense. Rule of thumb would be to completely remove the transformer from the fixture while bypassing it. Difficult but can be done. This will allow cooling space and that the heat won't melt internal wiring.
Another option would be to buy some 650w/120v FBE PAR 36 lamps and again bypass the transformer, if not even add cooling vents to the rear of your fixtures. This is high modification to the fixture and not really recommended but would be required. At that point you have a 25x15 degree beam angle spot lamp which you might need to add a top hat to such as a properly sized soup can that extends the length of the pinspot to it. This will reduce and clean up the focus more. It's 120v and 36,000 Lumens at a really high 5K color temperature (lasting 30 hours) Ah' what a lamp if you can afford to use them and seriously modify the store bought pinspot so as to properly use them. All wiring removed and replaced with high temperature wiring and transformer removed plus the fixture with a added properly sized soup can so as to limit and clean up the field angle.
Could work but before I tried such a thing I might if I have a few 6" Fresnels hanging about, attempting to remove the lens from one, adding a top hat and putting the thing into spot position. If too harsh a beam, I might add a very light frost to it and if not much help even cover the reflector in black foil wrap or remove it. Theoretically the Fresnel should also work fine as a properly sized beam of light at this distance, just might take some work and be less refined.
Beyond this and these, ACL or SBL (Sealed Beam Lamp) as it were, there is lots of versions and both terms are for all intensive purposes one in the same. Even for the PAR 38 lamp, there is various beam spreads at low voltage and low voltage is the concept to go for. If you have a surplus PAR fixture type, it's possible to just buy some lamps for it/them and wire them in series with a sufficient lamp for them to have a VNSP beam of light in most all sizes of lamp. This just as one is able to use MFL lamps with a pin spot fixture at the same wattage/voltage, simply by changing to a different lamp. Literally hundreds of lamp types line and low voltage on the market, the above is only a sampling of what is possible.
On the pinspots... they at 30w 5.5 to 6.4v normally have about a 5x5 degree beam angle. (Confounded GE' Lightbeams program does not have this lamp on file to check the beam spread at that distance but its simple to determine given your throw distance.) Frosting the heck out of these lamps most likely won't achieve a say goal of 36" dia. hard shaft pools of light on the stage floor - no matter what punch is desired or needed. They while on a transformer are dimmable, though you need most likely at least two to three per 2.4Kw dimmer circuit so as to behave.
A Beam projector of course would be ideal as with a PAR 64 VNSP with top hat. This assuming line voltage (120v) normal types of fixture. Lekos - I'm thinking 6x12 or 30 degree Leko would also work with a donut and iris. Given such equipment is not in budget - even the 1Kw type FFN PAR 64 VNSP lamps which would have 849 foot candles with a 7.65' field angle and 3.15' beam angle - renting 8" Fresnel/PAR 64 top hat would further refine this beam of light. This fixture/lamp the PAR 64 with FFN lamp would however be most economical to rent even with a top hat for it.
Given it's just a scene, other options such as renting another Leko or beam projector - but worth checking into, are most likely not feasible given a small inventory you have to start with - though renting some "ACL" PAR 64 fixtures and wiring them in series for your vents with the 600w/28v #4559 or more common 250w/28v #4552 lamps would do the thing in a PAR 64 fixture with such a series voltage system. This would be dimmable. Normally such a spaced apart ACL concept is not a normal thing so there might be a set up and re-engineering of a system price added to the rental charge to do this from the rental company. Should the rental company not have such a ACL lamp PAR 64 system available, any rock and roll lighting company would though it might be a little more difficult to get a custom rental out of them as spaced apart ACL cans would be. (Normally such cans would be together on a lamp bar wired within the bar.)
The #4559 lamp (while fairly rare to the industry these days in use) would have 1,852 foot candles with a field angle of 3.78' and beam angle of 2.52' - now that's tight. (Sorry, GE Light Beams - the discontinued program I'm using does not list the #4552, much less the #4515.)
Other options assuming the PAR 36 fixtures bought...
Could buy the pinspots and bypass the transformer, than wire them for PAR 36, 250w/28v #4596 lamps which will fit into your light fixture and be feasible but a bit warm for it. Would have to run four of them in series in the same concept of would work. Again limitations of GE Lightbeams free but limited. Given the 12x11 degree beam angle which is very similar to that of the #4559 lamp above, the beam angle should be slightly smaller but roughly the same. This lamp would be a good choice even if a little less intense. Rule of thumb would be to completely remove the transformer from the fixture while bypassing it. Difficult but can be done. This will allow cooling space and that the heat won't melt internal wiring.
Another option would be to buy some 650w/120v FBE PAR 36 lamps and again bypass the transformer, if not even add cooling vents to the rear of your fixtures. This is high modification to the fixture and not really recommended but would be required. At that point you have a 25x15 degree beam angle spot lamp which you might need to add a top hat to such as a properly sized soup can that extends the length of the pinspot to it. This will reduce and clean up the focus more. It's 120v and 36,000 Lumens at a really high 5K color temperature (lasting 30 hours) Ah' what a lamp if you can afford to use them and seriously modify the store bought pinspot so as to properly use them. All wiring removed and replaced with high temperature wiring and transformer removed plus the fixture with a added properly sized soup can so as to limit and clean up the field angle.
Could work but before I tried such a thing I might if I have a few 6" Fresnels hanging about, attempting to remove the lens from one, adding a top hat and putting the thing into spot position. If too harsh a beam, I might add a very light frost to it and if not much help even cover the reflector in black foil wrap or remove it. Theoretically the Fresnel should also work fine as a properly sized beam of light at this distance, just might take some work and be less refined.
Beyond this and these, ACL or SBL (Sealed Beam Lamp) as it were, there is lots of versions and both terms are for all intensive purposes one in the same. Even for the PAR 38 lamp, there is various beam spreads at low voltage and low voltage is the concept to go for. If you have a surplus PAR fixture type, it's possible to just buy some lamps for it/them and wire them in series with a sufficient lamp for them to have a VNSP beam of light in most all sizes of lamp. This just as one is able to use MFL lamps with a pin spot fixture at the same wattage/voltage, simply by changing to a different lamp. Literally hundreds of lamp types line and low voltage on the market, the above is only a sampling of what is possible.
A safety note on modifying your pinspots. This is not an easy task, one that will totally void the UL listing of the fixture in a way swapping out the lamp for another 30w/6v lamp won't and require quite a bit of work. Such a step is not recommended should you buy fixtures and attempt to modify them for either the #4596 or FEB lamp. Still it can be done. Attached is a photo of an American DJ pinspot that I modified for a tour to either house DWE lamps or #4596 lamps dependant upon how it was wired within the pod of these and fluorescent fixtures within the light. Had to make about 140 of these fixtures in about a two week period - this without compormizing safety and no budget for safety. That safety screen especially afront of the lamp is especially hard to do, in my case I modified some screens off audience blinders so as to fit. Really not easy to do such a safety screen other than having a store bought component due to the welded screen nature.
All wiring was replaced with 200c wiring, the rear of the fixture was punched out and replaced with a screen and the front of the fixture had a lens safety screen added to it. This in addition to a safety cable to ensure the front of the fixture lamp retaining cap could not fall off.
Gotta vent the rear of the fixture and safety screen the lens.
Two choices in PAR 36 line voltage spot lamp that would work (again on the theoretical side) with such a PAR 36 can, the FEB above mentioned that would have a daylight color temperature, and the FBO which would have a incandescent/halogen color temperature but much more luminious output. Nothing more powerful than a #4596 on the other hand for a PAR 36 SBL (ACL) lamp. Three lamp choices to max out a pinspot fixture but only given a very heavily modified fixture. Short of as shown, it's not safe to use such lamps in a pinspot. Way too much lamp for so small of a cooling area - this much less lack of safety screening both to the wiring area and high pressure lamp.
All wiring was replaced with 200c wiring, the rear of the fixture was punched out and replaced with a screen and the front of the fixture had a lens safety screen added to it. This in addition to a safety cable to ensure the front of the fixture lamp retaining cap could not fall off.
Gotta vent the rear of the fixture and safety screen the lens.
Two choices in PAR 36 line voltage spot lamp that would work (again on the theoretical side) with such a PAR 36 can, the FEB above mentioned that would have a daylight color temperature, and the FBO which would have a incandescent/halogen color temperature but much more luminious output. Nothing more powerful than a #4596 on the other hand for a PAR 36 SBL (ACL) lamp. Three lamp choices to max out a pinspot fixture but only given a very heavily modified fixture. Short of as shown, it's not safe to use such lamps in a pinspot. Way too much lamp for so small of a cooling area - this much less lack of safety screening both to the wiring area and high pressure lamp.
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Another option on the simple to rent or buy concept of PAR 64 fixtures, but one that in addition to the FFN lamp would be to go with the ray light kit for them - often available thru many DJ suppliers. Uses a 600w/120v DYS lamp (not very long life) or even a Ushio 800w/120v lamp for more output. Might find a sales price of such a fixture really cheap, this much less the rental. Output could fall in line with the above #4552 lamps in output sufficient for you needs and again renting or getting top hats for the fixture could help further refine the beam of light for your use.
Better option than modifying or doing the PAR 36 pinspot or other lamp in it. This said, there are other low voltage lamps for the PAR 38, 46 and especially PAR 56 in low voltage that could work. This even potentially some MR-16 lamps that could be sufficient on the concept scale.
Still... proper fixture would be a beam projector. Perhaps the rental company or local college has some laying about collecting dust that would be available cheap.
Another concept would be a rental company or rock and roll lighting company that stocks four light Mole Richardson lights or Thomas brand like four light audience blinder type fixtures. IN the case of a Mole Richardson four light, you would want it lamped with FAY or otherwise the discontinued FBJ lamps, for the Thomas normal fixture it would be four lamps per fixture of the #4596 or FBE/FBO lamps. You now have a pod of four that you focus to the center. Lots of light, one aiming point. One four light audience blinder per man-hole cover. Could work sufficiently and should be really intense.
Note the note above about color temperature in PAR 36 lamps. Perhaps a daylight color temperature - even if color corrected to will also help the effect.
Better option than modifying or doing the PAR 36 pinspot or other lamp in it. This said, there are other low voltage lamps for the PAR 38, 46 and especially PAR 56 in low voltage that could work. This even potentially some MR-16 lamps that could be sufficient on the concept scale.
Still... proper fixture would be a beam projector. Perhaps the rental company or local college has some laying about collecting dust that would be available cheap.
Another concept would be a rental company or rock and roll lighting company that stocks four light Mole Richardson lights or Thomas brand like four light audience blinder type fixtures. IN the case of a Mole Richardson four light, you would want it lamped with FAY or otherwise the discontinued FBJ lamps, for the Thomas normal fixture it would be four lamps per fixture of the #4596 or FBE/FBO lamps. You now have a pod of four that you focus to the center. Lots of light, one aiming point. One four light audience blinder per man-hole cover. Could work sufficiently and should be really intense.
Note the note above about color temperature in PAR 36 lamps. Perhaps a daylight color temperature - even if color corrected to will also help the effect.
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Sorry but that picture doesn't say "below a sewer grate" to me. But if that's the effect you want, the pinspots should be able to make it happen, but you'll need to put them on different battens and focus them intentionally random to get the same effects as the 3000W Syncrolites (or Showguns) in the photo. A four bar of ACLs will not work, even if focused random. I would use at least seven pinspots on 3 different battens, maybe even plugged into the wall as constant power during the previous scene if they are not noticeable when the stage lights are one, then blackout everything except the pinspots, should be a dramatic effect.
Or point the unused lamps to the grid or offstage (anywhere out of view of the audience). I've even seen a rather large 28V, 250W resistor called an "ACL-eliminator."
Alex, I know you know better than that. You attach a fork crimp terminal to the wires, then the fork goes onto the screw terminals of the lamp.
By the way, some rental houses stock an "ACL Harness," which allows the single cans to be hung anywhere, even extended away from each other. It's a male plug with 4 female connectors wired in series, usually all 2P&G. But I'm not recommending this for non-professional use, as it's too easy to plug the wrong fixture into the wrong connector. ACLs need not be four lamps on 15" centers. I once built a "light curtain" out of (20) 6V 30W PAR36 lamps, all wired in series, 600W total, at 120V, all single hung, with 18" of cable between then, even though they hung on 12" centers. I was glad I didn't have to maintain it, as it was for a permanent club install. Not that difficult to maintain really, just unplug the one power connector and test for continuity on each lamp until you find the bad one. Just like old Christmas lights!
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TupeloTechie
Active Member
If you look for some pictures of the B'way production of Les Miserables it has has few sewer scenes that look very realistic.
cvanp
Active Member
To sum up, my options appear to be:
I think those are my top options right now, and I'm honestly leaning away from the ACLs just because I can't find any information about them other than here. The pinspots are promising if they work, and if I can get enough ellipsoidals for cheap enough I'll probably consider that route. But with that, I can't just rent the lights - I also have to rent Stage pin to Edison adapters so it won't be too cheap.
Thanks everyone for your help. I thought this would be a simple topic but I guess six pages later it turned out I was wrong! Thanks for guiding me through all the different options.
- Rent ellipsoidals (50 degree S4s in best case, but my rental place only does Shakespeare 50s) and make some lovely gobos to get the light pin effect
- Pinspots, (Chauvet YA-15 or YA-06???)
- These enigmatic "ACL"s. I still don't quite understand everything about these.
I think those are my top options right now, and I'm honestly leaning away from the ACLs just because I can't find any information about them other than here. The pinspots are promising if they work, and if I can get enough ellipsoidals for cheap enough I'll probably consider that route. But with that, I can't just rent the lights - I also have to rent Stage pin to Edison adapters so it won't be too cheap.
Thanks everyone for your help. I thought this would be a simple topic but I guess six pages later it turned out I was wrong! Thanks for guiding me through all the different options.
cvanp, I assume you've looked into renting the pinspots? Any mobile DJs in your area who might have some, if not your local lighting rental shop? These are a big money maker in the industry, and anyone who rents mirror balls should also rent the pinspots to go with it. It's probably the most-used fixture for lighting a mirror ball.
cvanp
Active Member
So I just got some of the Source Four lights from my dad's auditorium and we're playing with them now at our school. Turns out they are Source Four Jrs., not the regular Source Fours, and have 23deg. on the side but my LD seems to think that they'll be good. He focused them and doesn't even think we'll really need gobos.
I think this is the option that we'll go with... thanks everyone for your help!
I think this is the option that we'll go with... thanks everyone for your help!
cvanp
Active Member
Quick update: Turns out this 6 page thread was all for nothing (well, it's good for future searchers). Our fire department didn't want to turn off any fire alarms for the show, and thus we can't use fog. Without fog, the light beams aren't visible, and thus the effect is relatively pointless.
Thanks for all your help though, it was greatly appreciated!
Thanks for all your help though, it was greatly appreciated!
It happens, unfortunately. I can't tell you how many corporate clients won't spend a few hundred dollars on a fire watch (having a firemen on duty while the alarms are off) so you can use your haze to make the most of the thousands of dollars of flashy lighting they got for their entertainment.
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dimwatt
Member
Far from it. I thought that was a very interesting discussion which provoked a lot of different opinions and creative ideas. The very reason why I joined this forum.
Thank you for starting the thread.
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