Poll: Mixing Musicals

Do you mix musical mics with faders or the mute buttons assuming no dca's and scenes.

  • Faders

    Votes: 25 59.5%
  • Mutes

    Votes: 6 14.3%
  • Mutes? Are you effing kidding??

    Votes: 11 26.2%

  • Total voters
    42
Largely, I gather, it was missed pickups, because I'd only seen it for 1 rehearsal and a dress, and I wasn't getting *any* cues for those, and mediocre cues for the first performance.

By the last (second) performance, the cues had improved, and I had memorized a number of them.

Normally, either our renters rent the whole week, or walk in with a competent SM, or both, and it's not a problem. This was a special case, but it was *their* special case, not mine.
 
I'm a lights guy, but I watch our sound people, since I'm down to pushing the go button at showtime.
They set the faders at mic check and use mostly the mute buttons.
Our board has the capability of doing a scene to scene programming just like a light board, and I can't for the life of me
figure out why none of the sound folks use it. Seems to me setting a bunch of cues to the script and hitting that go button would
be much easier, then tweak the levels as needed. Fewer missed "one line" characters. No missed stage exits with flushing toilets. Also a safety factor
if someone is sick or injured and somebody else has to step in and run the show.
 
Our board has the capability of doing a scene to scene programming just like a light board, and I can't for the life of me figure out why none of the sound folks use it. Seems to me setting a bunch of cues to the script and hitting that go button would be much easier, then tweak the levels as needed. Fewer missed "one line" characters. No missed stage exits with flushing toilets. Also a safety factor if someone is sick or injured and somebody else has to step in and run the show.

Programming it is almost as much a skill as throwing faders. I've seen people try to use this for their first or second time and end up tearing their hair out when they discover they didn't think through the recall safe parameters -- now mid rehearsal if they want to adjust the EQ it automatically gets reset, or all the monitor mixes will get reset.

On top of that, all shows are not created equal. Some have a lot of entrances and exits but everyone comes and goes at basically the same time. Others are a constant revolving door of entrances and exits. If you program scenes for every single entrance/exit, it can end up being a ton of scenes. Can take up more programming/rehearsal time to set up than it's worth.

Still a very valid tool for mixing. Just not a magic bullet, and you still need to ride the faders regardless to keep the mix balanced.
 
"I try to change my levels as little as possible after sound check."

Two problems with that:

1) most of these shows have casts under the age of 15; their levels jump all over hell, all the time, even intra-show. Of course, my experience is that that's true of the adults, too, in the environment I work in.

2) my house has 3 *really nasty* resonant peaks; to get enough GBF for the actors to be audible, even with only 2 or 3 mics open, I have to ride the hairy edge of feedback; there's no way I can just pick a level and leave it there.

The corollary, which is an answer to someone else's comment back there: I'm overhire; if I quit in mid show, it's the last gig I'll do for the house, and they paid slightly more than half my bills last year.
 
As for scene programming, I personally don't see it being very useful, for the reasons Mike mentions, *unless what you're using it for is to rotate which channels are active* on the block of 8 (or so) DCA handles you can easily reach -- as it seen in a number of those Broadway mixer videos I mentioned earlier; in that environment, you're only scene-ing the UI, not the channels.

Since I'm rarely mixing more than 16 channels of vocal, and usually closer to 8, it doesn't buy me much.

No, *clean* mic cues are the prescription here -- and I know that because on shows where I get them (like the one this week and next)... I don't have these problems.
 
Sorry this happened to you. Was this an amateur group, or professional company?

I've been there, with a substitute last minute director sitting outside the installed system's prime coverage pattern 3' from the stage insisting on giving me "tips" in real time. It was an amateur musical 1 nite only performance in a super reflective room (glass windows on 2 long sides, marble floor, hard wood paneling) with only 2 rehearsals in the space with tech. Plenty of alcohol swirling around, too.

I ended up taking the A3, giving him the intercom, and instructing him to say "yes" to anything he was told and not bother me with it. This was at the same time we discovered a hardware fault in the Roland M-480 early digital mixer where mute group buttons worked fine to mute, but randomly would fail to unmute all members. Across multiple fader layers. I mixed, the A2 did sfx rolls and dealt with one by one unmutes at scene changes as the layers flapped by, and the A3 functioned as shock absorber. Fun times ... perfect storm.


Otherwise, I agree that both are useful, depending on the skill and consistency of the actors, whether mics are being traded between actors or remain constantly assigned, the flow of the show, how many channels are in use, whether floor or overhead area mics are also in use for chorus, lesser characters, tap dancers, etc., if you are mixing the orchestra as well, etc. I hesitate to do complex shows without a digital console tho, and generally specify that one must be rented if not available at the venue. It also helps to be able to source rental gear, so you have control over what gets dragged in, a way to get hardware support if it's not working, etc.
 
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Jeez, and I thought I had it bad.

Yeah, this was an arts-school group; 71 kids from 4-15 doing Beast Jr.

We get a lot of that as rentals, it's just usually better organized...
 
I mix a lot of musicals, mostly pretty decent community theater & high school. For the past few years I've used Palladium (made by CH Sound Design) and programmed the script. Palladium can control faders, mutes, eq, sends, DCA groups, channel names, and basically whatever you want. It takes more time up front but on the plus side I'll usually go into the first day of tech rehearsals and if the show is following the script everything will just work. Strongly recommended for mixing serious musical theater as programming is much faster than saving in scene focus (Yamaha) or snippets (X32/M32). It uses either OSC or midi messages to control the console, and you can control multiple consoles from Palladium (for example if you've got two different mixers and one is doing the orchestra while the other is doing the actor mics).

When programming this way, I generally have the software recall and change both faders and mutes.
 
That makes sense.. But we do all musicals here 5/year and He'll have 20 mics come ambling on to the stage.. Maybe a couple principals live for some dialog, then all sing... Kinda fun to see him go down the mute keys like Elton John playing the piano. I just don't think I could wrap my head around 3 up, 20 up 8 down all down in quick succession and hit the righ ones. without some help.. I know he does group them in logical order.. principals, secondarys, one offs and chorus... I guess that's why I do lights :)
 
Let me preface this by saying if I can I prefer to mix as close to line by line as I can. Sometimes that is not practical. I've been forced to use mute buttons and groups, we had a K3 theatre console, that's what I had and I don't want to go back. As for programming verses throwing faders, it really comes down to the need. For mass entrances I love being able to push a go button, however, I may have already brought up the fader on the mic for the first line. For single people coming on and off, almost always a fader or a DCA. Most of the cast sizes here are around 20 so it can get busy. What it comes down to me is work flow, I use a combination of techniques to get the results I need.
 
The corollary, which is an answer to someone else's comment back there: I'm overhire; if I quit in mid show, it's the last gig I'll do for the house, and they paid slightly more than half my bills last year.

That's the benefit you receive if you work for br-assholes... a paycheque. Up to you, Jay, to decide if the professional and personal abuse is acceptable in the workplace. Since their business represents so much of your personal income, suck it up and take their money. I'd flip burgers first.

If you don't own the company providing the service, I'd notify your HR dept that a client is creating a hostile and unprofessional working environment, and perhaps the CEO of the company needs to have a chat with the Headmaster of the private school about such things.
 
Wow

We use scene/cur recall based on French Scenes (an entrance or exit delineates a scene). We usually open all on stage mics to catch "recoveries" - when an other actor may feed a missed line or prompt.

To Jays point this means we have to be able to sufficient gain before feedback with "ALL" mics open. We have had great success with this approach in some awful spaces - it has sometimes meant we had to bring a replacement speaker system - usually on our dime. But it means we have way less problems. We always retune the room with our dbx AFS2 leaving 6-8 open filters to catch live howls.

Without a decent SM calling cues properly including Standby S17 ...Go S17 in time any method is a cluster -.... and the only solution is knowing the show

Programming a musical/play takes time ... but makes the show close to flawless

PROCESS
  • get a marked up script that shows the directors entrances and exits
  • pre-program these before the first rehearsal (easiest if you bring your own board - in our case normally Soundcraft Si boards) - we have a set of scenes that start before the plays first cue (normally S6)
  • first Tech Rehearsal
    • mic up each actor and mic check them standing on the apron of the stage and get them to use their loudiest voice as used during the show - eq, gain, compression etc and save to first active scene line entire cast up on apron, or
    • downstage limit they are using, mics on, and retune the space to catch feedback - you may not get to full level (though we usually do)
    • now we do a scene walk through, and make any adjustments needed to our recorded scene - real easy on the Soundcraft Si boards (the original EQ, comp gain settings will now carry over to all updated scenes (so every scene has to be updated during this rehearsal)
    • repeat for each scene
    • we also repeat the actor sound check and cast sound check before every performance (rehearsal or show)
If there are a lot of miked actors on stage with no lines for that scene we may knock there level down in the interests fo "catching a non-scripted line"

Through out every rehearsal you get (or even shows) we continually update any scene that needs it - change levels, eq etc, an extra actor etc - this generally means every show is better than the last one

We just did a school play -
  • Greek Tragedy where we installed a sound and lighting system in a small gym with all brick walls and no sound treatments,
  • trained the kids to run the system and update scenes - we did the preprograming based on the directors script -
  • we sat through the first rehearsal teaching he board op to update cues. then we left.
  • They had two more dress rehearsals, and a preview
  • We attended the Show and stood back and the SM called the cues perfectly and timely
  • the board op got every cue
Not sure how it would of gone if we expected an 16 year old board op with no experience on a digital board to do the programming!
 
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That makes sense.. But we do all musicals here 5/year and He'll have 20 mics come ambling on to the stage.. Maybe a couple principals live for some dialog, then all sing... Kinda fun to see him go down the mute keys like Elton John playing the piano. I just don't think I could wrap my head around 3 up, 20 up 8 down all down in quick succession and hit the righ ones. without some help.. I know he does group them in logical order.. principals, secondarys, one offs and chorus... I guess that's why I do lights :)
It's also alot in how you mark your script. After a couple of shows where you mark it poorly you realize things like giving youself a standby cue a page ahead so you know 10 people are about to enter. Also cues to tell you everyone but one is out or a quickchange is happening onstage type of thing.
It gets very easy to mix with faders and makes you realize mute buttons really screw you over when you've forgotten one because you end up doing more work by pulling the fader down, unmuting then fading back in. Or if you accidentally unmute the wrong channel or try and turn up a fader that's still muted.
Plus as someone who mixed theatre for many years on an analog console, those mute lights are freaking bright in the dark back row of the theatre and they didn't have adjustments like we do on digital consoles.
 
I mix musicals almost exclusively. I use X32 and video a full run through of the show with the actors wearing numbered jerseys correlating to their mic number. Watch the video and program the show with only mutes enabled. When you walk into the first rehearsal mic up everyone and run the show. I use gate to control all mics so when they are a bunch on stage you don't have cross talk issues. With only mute enabled on the show control any eq, compression, gate is unaffected when you hit the go button. I have over 30 years of analog board experience and this has been a life saver.
 
Generally if I have someone telling me how to mix a show I want to remind them that if they knew how to be a sound designer / engineer then I am guessing they would be doing the job. Really I listen, nod, and thank them for their input...then i do my thing my way. Some consoles have better show control than others. Allen Heath QU does not have a very flexible system.
 
Few points:
1) No director, musical director or otherwise, in the tech booth during the show. Write down your notes and give them to me after the show.
1a) MD can be in the booth during tech, as long as they give me the space I need to figure out the show.
2) Actors don't perform the exact same every night, why would I set faders and then leave them all night? Live performance is dynamic, we need to be responding to those dynamics to ensure they best show for the cast and the audience.
3) How I choose to operate my mix is up to me. If you aren't happy with the end result, see point 1) and give me some notes.
 
Few points:
1) No director, musical director or otherwise, in the tech booth during the show. Write down your notes and give them to me after the show.
1a) MD can be in the booth during tech, as long as they give me the space I need to figure out the show.
2) Actors don't perform the exact same every night, why would I set faders and then leave them all night? Live performance is dynamic, we need to be responding to those dynamics to ensure they best show for the cast and the audience.
3) How I choose to operate my mix is up to me. If you aren't happy with the end result, see point 1) and give me some notes.
@spenserh Posting in FULL support.
Emphasizing your point 1: "Write down your notes and give them to me AFTER the show." (NOT in a rushed verbal chat as the House Lights are fading and I'm already cross-fading the pre show into the first act's opener.)
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
I generally don't have a need to get line by line fading. I use Mutes as my general cueing for mics being on stage. But that doesn't stop me from having my hands on a mixbus/subgroup etc. I generally run all the mics about 5-10db below what I consider to be the 'Focused Speaker" volume, and will ride the faders once my cued my mutes for the scene, bumping here and there for solo, duet, and features lines/dialogue in songs, etc.

I also follow my own script, notated by me.
 
Programming it is almost as much a skill as throwing faders. I've seen people try to use this for their first or second time and end up tearing their hair out when they discover they didn't think through the recall safe parameters -- now mid rehearsal if they want to adjust the EQ it automatically gets reset, or all the monitor mixes will get reset.

On top of that, all shows are not created equal. Some have a lot of entrances and exits but everyone comes and goes at basically the same time. Others are a constant revolving door of entrances and exits. If you program scenes for every single entrance/exit, it can end up being a ton of scenes. Can take up more programming/rehearsal time to set up than it's worth.

Still a very valid tool for mixing. Just not a magic bullet, and you still need to ride the faders regardless to keep the mix balanced.

This a Million Times this. FIven a week plus to set up scene/ recall safe and the level of console that gives me the ability to then disable the recall safes on scene when something needs to change sure. I've never had a show where I've had that luxury of time and trouble shootings, so manual running is still my goto.
 
The last time I mixed was on a manual, baby-board. Only DSP it had was a one-size-fits-all compressor on each channel. Fast show, one hour run, young audience. I set the faders to starting position by eye and used the mutes to pop them in and out; meant I could do the big entrances by running a finger along the bank of mutes.

Before that a lot of LS9. Recall safed everything but fader level, put a "memorize" hotkey right by a "forward" and "back" memory page hotkey. The recalled scene would pop the faders up and I reserved the mutes for "locking out" a mic that had gotten bad or gotten forgotten (it was not a controlled situation -- no A2, no support, actors did what they pleased. Only word I ever got from SM was "No, we have no time for a mic check, choreography/lights/director needs it. Oh, and director says it needs to be louder.")

Sorry. Bad memories. Anyhow, scene recall to one of three positions; "reminder" down at 40 db when I was going to ease it up manually on an entrance, "close" at 5-10 db low of my mark when I needed a whole bunch of people up for lines but would finesse them on a line-by-line basis (had to, in that house). And "this has to be good enough" when 20+ people would rush on stage at the same moment and the FSM help me if even one mic was off.

I'd adjust these presets based on experience and over the first weekend -- and whenever there were cast replacements, which were also common -- I'd adjust and then commit the adjustments to memory.
 

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