I'm seeing powercon on a lot of non-theatrical, non-concert type fixtures. LED panels, video panels, smaller movers that draw under 100 watts (and fixtures over that as well). But tons of fixtures that have very low power requirements are being clustered for eye candy. But as I consider buying products I consider ALL my costs. Like diamonds there's the 5 "C's" Cables, Connectors, Clamps, Cases, and Construction Costs (ok, so that's 6). So buying a fixture for $100 and spending another $100 on per unit just to get it installed can really kill the bottom line.
Powercon prices?
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I'm seeing powercon on a lot of non-theatrical, non-concert type fixtures. LED panels, video panels, smaller movers that draw under 100 watts (and fixtures over that as well). But tons of fixtures that have very low power requirements are being clustered for eye candy. But as I consider buying products I consider ALL my costs. Like diamonds there's the 5 "C's" Cables, Connectors, Clamps, Cases, and Construction Costs (ok, so that's 6). So buying a fixture for $100 and spending another $100 on per unit just to get it installed can really kill the bottom line.
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
I've proposed a lot of changes to the model building and fire codes, where mine was the only one, and they all receive due consideration. It just takes one.
But be careful. You might like the process and NFPA is usually looking for committee people in the "consumer" category, that special interest group who has to live with the consequences of the regulation.
STEVETERRY
Well-Known Member
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Apmccandless
Active Member
Why all of this focus on 12/3 SOOW? I have seen very few fixtures where the through will allow 20 amps of power on the pass through. In the rigs I work with the total cable run from the distro/breakout to the last fixture is never over 100'. Why not use 14/3 soow? In many rigs a NEMA 5-15 begins the run which is only rated for 1800 watts anyway. 14/3 SOOW fits fine in a powercon connector and would not be subject to a 2M restriction.
Very good point, but is that because internal jumper wiring is only rated for that (as something that should be changed,) or because the fixture whip is only rated for that? But also very important in consideration to a system.
12/3 will fit into a PowerCon - just takes a lot more work in not easy fitting. 12/3 SOOW does fit in having seen it, but not necessary for a fixture whip and I have not studied into how to do it - but have seen it done, mostly on 12/3 SJEOOW which isn’t acceptable. Wow! Seemingly heated discussion but polite. Great.
As policy where I work, I established a standard that given the circuit breakers are 20 AMP, no parts of this wiring system should be rated for under this by way of “idiot proofing.” My Wife came up to me today with a power cord that’s a very nice 16/3 SJOOW cable, Edison to PowerCon True 1. My policy is also if there is if the fixture whip has low chance of someone plugging it in-line with other fixtures, or these fixture whips if properly labeled for the fixture to be used with are in use, they can be fine. No power feed thru - but only if labeled properly for the fixture it’s used on.
Goal and concept here is safety. If you have 20 Amp circuit breakers for a circuit, you want to safely idiot proof it. So that the failing point of the load rated system is the circuit breaker. If somehow a 16/3 or 14/3 adaptor from what ever to Powercon - which ever version might be used by “accident”, and someone powers up too many lights, your failure point is in the cable if rated for less in amperage than the circuit breaker. I suspect this would be a concern for all.
Perminant install, or where the ME is totally in control and is not worried about future generations.. I know I can only connect four fixtures to this gauge of cable for this fixture as specified and all the credit to you, especially if you drop dead tomorrow and have trained your crew as I have in all of your concerns about safety. Otherwise, why shouldn’t every jumper or adaptor be rated for the normal rated amperage of the circuit breaker protection of it? And or in general comes the idiot proofing standard of 12/3 for any jumpers. Fixture whips at up to 6' I believe can be SJ. Main concern is portable verses in-house. SJT or SJE might be fine in - house, but given winters in cold and cracking plastic and chemicals like DF-50 machines breaking down the plastic compisition... plastic cables don’t hold up as well. Simple as that.
Great debate, but I suspect most in the discussion are ME’s and TD in their own right in coming to common cause. Hope the above helps to bridge the gap in concepts between parties.
I do lesser gauges for some marked adaptors, but mostly scrap all less than 12/3 SJOOW cable for jumpers or adaptors. Idiot proofing was a concern and still is. That said, also don’t trust any cable built by someone else - ever. Test is and at least lot number of it test each connection. Normally you will find loose terminals to what you buy, and infrequently a mis-terminated terminal.
12/3 will fit into a PowerCon - just takes a lot more work in not easy fitting. 12/3 SOOW does fit in having seen it, but not necessary for a fixture whip and I have not studied into how to do it - but have seen it done, mostly on 12/3 SJEOOW which isn’t acceptable. Wow! Seemingly heated discussion but polite. Great.
As policy where I work, I established a standard that given the circuit breakers are 20 AMP, no parts of this wiring system should be rated for under this by way of “idiot proofing.” My Wife came up to me today with a power cord that’s a very nice 16/3 SJOOW cable, Edison to PowerCon True 1. My policy is also if there is if the fixture whip has low chance of someone plugging it in-line with other fixtures, or these fixture whips if properly labeled for the fixture to be used with are in use, they can be fine. No power feed thru - but only if labeled properly for the fixture it’s used on.
Goal and concept here is safety. If you have 20 Amp circuit breakers for a circuit, you want to safely idiot proof it. So that the failing point of the load rated system is the circuit breaker. If somehow a 16/3 or 14/3 adaptor from what ever to Powercon - which ever version might be used by “accident”, and someone powers up too many lights, your failure point is in the cable if rated for less in amperage than the circuit breaker. I suspect this would be a concern for all.
Perminant install, or where the ME is totally in control and is not worried about future generations.. I know I can only connect four fixtures to this gauge of cable for this fixture as specified and all the credit to you, especially if you drop dead tomorrow and have trained your crew as I have in all of your concerns about safety. Otherwise, why shouldn’t every jumper or adaptor be rated for the normal rated amperage of the circuit breaker protection of it? And or in general comes the idiot proofing standard of 12/3 for any jumpers. Fixture whips at up to 6' I believe can be SJ. Main concern is portable verses in-house. SJT or SJE might be fine in - house, but given winters in cold and cracking plastic and chemicals like DF-50 machines breaking down the plastic compisition... plastic cables don’t hold up as well. Simple as that.
Great debate, but I suspect most in the discussion are ME’s and TD in their own right in coming to common cause. Hope the above helps to bridge the gap in concepts between parties.
I do lesser gauges for some marked adaptors, but mostly scrap all less than 12/3 SJOOW cable for jumpers or adaptors. Idiot proofing was a concern and still is. That said, also don’t trust any cable built by someone else - ever. Test is and at least lot number of it test each connection. Normally you will find loose terminals to what you buy, and infrequently a mis-terminated terminal.
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
Read the entire thread and the answer is code requires it. That's the primary reason. And codes change slowly unless a lot of people are killed and then fast changes can occur. New technology - LED in this case - does not lead to fast code changes.
Kudos to @STEVETERRY for taking this to bat for us.
Powercon is one of those connectors that is so much more convenient than the alternatives - IEC, L5-20, etc., its usage has gotten a little bit ahead of code compliance, and a little ahead of what may make sense, with regard to its multi-voltage capability, and its non make/break rating.
Here's an interesting product from a real company that is UL listed, which is a surprise to me due to the possibility of plugging it into a 208v Powercon feed:
http://whirlwindusa.com/catalog/power-electrical-distribution/stringers/pl1-420-wh
Here are the mating Powercon jumpers:
http://whirlwindusa.com/catalog/power-electrical-distribution/cables/nac3-length
If you look closely at the second picture, you can read SJOOW on the cable jacket.
I have a number of Powercon jumpers using 12/3 SOOW cord in use for stage power stringers. They fit fine, but I can see how they could pull lighting fixtures around. My Powercon fixtures are all movers with the inlet/outlet in the base, so I haven't had this problem personally.
Powercon is one of those connectors that is so much more convenient than the alternatives - IEC, L5-20, etc., its usage has gotten a little bit ahead of code compliance, and a little ahead of what may make sense, with regard to its multi-voltage capability, and its non make/break rating.
Here's an interesting product from a real company that is UL listed, which is a surprise to me due to the possibility of plugging it into a 208v Powercon feed:
http://whirlwindusa.com/catalog/power-electrical-distribution/stringers/pl1-420-wh
Here are the mating Powercon jumpers:
http://whirlwindusa.com/catalog/power-electrical-distribution/cables/nac3-length
If you look closely at the second picture, you can read SJOOW on the cable jacket.
I have a number of Powercon jumpers using 12/3 SOOW cord in use for stage power stringers. They fit fine, but I can see how they could pull lighting fixtures around. My Powercon fixtures are all movers with the inlet/outlet in the base, so I haven't had this problem personally.
Lyle Williams
Well-Known Member
Apmccandless
Active Member
BillConnorFASTC believe it or not I did read the entire thread. Where does code require 12/3 for all portable cords. Table 520.44 specifically lists 14 AWG extra hard usage cords and cables with a temperature rating 75C and 90C as being acceptable with an OCPD of 15A. 520.68 (3) only says that luminaire supply cords cannot be protected by an OCPD of greater than 20A. I understand that the ends would have to be installed in a UL listed shop for the assembly to be UL Listed but I see no code prohibition to 14/3 SOOW cord. I understand the thought behind Ship's comments and in the situations he listed I understand the administrative choice but this is not an NEC requirement. So I guess the question is does NEC 520.68 (3) limit the length of any cords that attach to fixtures by a luminaire specific listed connector to 2M in length or does it only limit cords using junior service cord to 2M in length? The way I understand the code is that using junior service cord is permitted under the conditions of NEC 520.68 (3) otherwise it defaults to 520.68 (1) where it says "Flexible conductors, including cable extensions, used to supply portable stage equipment shall be listed extra hard usage cords and cables." Please correct me if I am ignorant to this part of code but my lay person reading of the code led me to this conclusion.
Jay Ashworth
Well-Known Member
> why shouldn’t every jumper or adaptor be rated for the normal rated amperage of the circuit breaker protection of it?
Because you can get UL listed LED PARs with Powercon thrus that you can put 6-10 of on a single 20A non-dim with lots of headroom, and the weight of 12AWG jumpers will be twice the weight of the fixtures?
Because you can get UL listed LED PARs with Powercon thrus that you can put 6-10 of on a single 20A non-dim with lots of headroom, and the weight of 12AWG jumpers will be twice the weight of the fixtures?
> why shouldn’t every jumper or adaptor be rated for the normal rated amperage of the circuit breaker protection of it?
Because you can get UL listed LED PARs with Powercon thrus that you can put 6-10 of on a single 20A non-dim with lots of headroom, and the weight of 12AWG jumpers will be twice the weight of the fixtures?
To both of these points, I have received fixtures with 16ga, 14ga, and 12ga cables. What to you do when you have hundreds of different cables? Pretend that they are all the SMALLEST gauge you own. Establish a rule, that you do not put more than 10 amps(I think it's actually 13a for 16ga under 50', but I'd have to look it up) per fixture chain. Many LEDs specify much lower pass-through current than 20a anyway, so again if I am mixing fixture types, I just drop down to the most conservative rating. I would much rather have all 12ga cables(SJ) AND have fixture manufacturer rate the internal pass-through wiring at 20a, but for now, this is what works for me.
Obviously I have budget and time to throw out a bunch of fixture whips (ofen from the factory not done properly anyway). At times when the fixture is not feed thru, I check and label the cable for what it is to be used with. Others that have neither or other will have problems and need supervision and training for what's going on. Possibly not a bad thing given the years ago essence of training and management that for a time wasn't passed on seemingly.
A correction from me: "Otherwise, why shouldn’t every jumper or adaptor be rated for the normal rated amperage of the circuit breaker protection of it?"
If the fixture is not feeding thru, and fixture jumper labeled for its purpose, with proper management... fine as a rule for me - but also such jumpers are tossed from a standard cable size point of view. Specifically label what fixture this cable is for, or silicone it to the fixture.
Another note, "proper" (I don't view as necessary for a fixture whip) 12/3 SOOW with Powercon at times (in rare to see) has been known to un-lock and unplug itself. This would be a reason not to use it. Old timers can remember no doubt using type W' feeder cable rack to rack jumpers, and remembering similar.
Again and beyond my training of those directly under me, as mentioned My Wife knows she can only plug in 4 of some fixture into a circuit. Those doing shows for us even beyond the free lance as often in even shop staff, don't spend time in the shop training with the fixtures. And as I have have seen VL3K fixtures with both 700 and 1500 lamps in them, and BMFL fixtuers with 1200 lamps in them, and indeed 1500w proper lamps removed, because they didn't code 1700w on the lamp. Even recently had a upgraded Mythos 2.0 fixture with a HMI 440w lamp replaced by a MSD 20R lamp. Training is hard to find time to do, and un-surpervision costs money. Be it from a mis-lamped fixture, or electrical safety which looks bad on you when there is a mistake made that you didn't catch.
In other words, as opposed to a problem like sparks in the grid I once saw when early in my career... I error on the side of safety and protection. Those doing the work, don't often understand the full concept. Was installing some drapery last week at at school. One of my best tech people installed the bumpers between the carriers half hazard. Two bumpers between and no bumpers between others. "I was told to put them on, nobody told me to orientate them in any way", never thought of this reason or purpose I was adding them. My best crew member never considered the purpose or application in what and why he was doing something incorrectly. Sometimes stuff slips thru... (I was not the one instructing him to install them, I was on a scaff tower busy at the time - or he will have been further trained,) and sometimes generation to generation of supervisor to head worker, that's a problem.
Good code and standar compliance has a purpose. Sometimes no matter how good a teacher you are, stuff falls thru the cracks like the above drapery carrier track concepts in having a rubber bumper between carriers - that would do something as opposed to.... mind blank... I just installed all these bumpers, Installing them in the track.... ?what's the purpose of these bumpers between carriers? The person installing them for no doubt a reason never understood the purpose or asked why? Again, I was up on a scaffold tower at the time the project manager directed him to install them = as project manager was told or purpose but didn't understand the concept enough to convey the need and placement to the third person he was conveying it to. Person installing the bumpers should have asked himself the need in instruction for understanding but didn't also. A mistake I also have made in the past - but learning.
Given the simple above concept, its easy to see how something conveyed in message can become a mistake in doing. This especially if one person specifies to another, who than does so to a third and some details get left out as they will. On Powercon feed thru fixture whips and jumpers between them...
Assuming a 20A circuit breaker, what mistakes in powering up gear at you comfortable with? Can your training and supervision overcome mistakes that can and will happen, or idiot proof to ensure safety against a mistake?
Again also - don't trust cable you are provided unless molded for an end. Ofen what you get is loose in terminal or at times mis-wired. There is no such thing as a Powercon... to something or itself tester on the market at this point. I have invented a few based off the stage pin tester, and XLR cable tester concepts. LED dpt. people have already plugged one of my testers into line voltage. Suspect they were? Na, I have no idea, perhaps re-charging the 9v battery with 208v was their thoughts in blowing up the tester by "accident" - or just being idiots. Not the first time this has happened.
Rather have a cable tester get destroyed than a show not working following a mistake. Challenge is the LED dpt. manager "didn't know it happened", and in being "upset" has not found out who did it, and didn't tell him about the problem. Think that problem with who did it goes a little deeper than that by way of training, management, and those doing the job.
Given this, if you have a feed thru LED fixture, but 20 AMP breakers feeding the circuit, how much do you trust your eyes to be everywhere during the cabling of these lights with the proper size of cable feeding or feeding thru them?
A correction from me: "Otherwise, why shouldn’t every jumper or adaptor be rated for the normal rated amperage of the circuit breaker protection of it?"
If the fixture is not feeding thru, and fixture jumper labeled for its purpose, with proper management... fine as a rule for me - but also such jumpers are tossed from a standard cable size point of view. Specifically label what fixture this cable is for, or silicone it to the fixture.
Another note, "proper" (I don't view as necessary for a fixture whip) 12/3 SOOW with Powercon at times (in rare to see) has been known to un-lock and unplug itself. This would be a reason not to use it. Old timers can remember no doubt using type W' feeder cable rack to rack jumpers, and remembering similar.
Again and beyond my training of those directly under me, as mentioned My Wife knows she can only plug in 4 of some fixture into a circuit. Those doing shows for us even beyond the free lance as often in even shop staff, don't spend time in the shop training with the fixtures. And as I have have seen VL3K fixtures with both 700 and 1500 lamps in them, and BMFL fixtuers with 1200 lamps in them, and indeed 1500w proper lamps removed, because they didn't code 1700w on the lamp. Even recently had a upgraded Mythos 2.0 fixture with a HMI 440w lamp replaced by a MSD 20R lamp. Training is hard to find time to do, and un-surpervision costs money. Be it from a mis-lamped fixture, or electrical safety which looks bad on you when there is a mistake made that you didn't catch.
In other words, as opposed to a problem like sparks in the grid I once saw when early in my career... I error on the side of safety and protection. Those doing the work, don't often understand the full concept. Was installing some drapery last week at at school. One of my best tech people installed the bumpers between the carriers half hazard. Two bumpers between and no bumpers between others. "I was told to put them on, nobody told me to orientate them in any way", never thought of this reason or purpose I was adding them. My best crew member never considered the purpose or application in what and why he was doing something incorrectly. Sometimes stuff slips thru... (I was not the one instructing him to install them, I was on a scaff tower busy at the time - or he will have been further trained,) and sometimes generation to generation of supervisor to head worker, that's a problem.
Good code and standar compliance has a purpose. Sometimes no matter how good a teacher you are, stuff falls thru the cracks like the above drapery carrier track concepts in having a rubber bumper between carriers - that would do something as opposed to.... mind blank... I just installed all these bumpers, Installing them in the track.... ?what's the purpose of these bumpers between carriers? The person installing them for no doubt a reason never understood the purpose or asked why? Again, I was up on a scaffold tower at the time the project manager directed him to install them = as project manager was told or purpose but didn't understand the concept enough to convey the need and placement to the third person he was conveying it to. Person installing the bumpers should have asked himself the need in instruction for understanding but didn't also. A mistake I also have made in the past - but learning.
Given the simple above concept, its easy to see how something conveyed in message can become a mistake in doing. This especially if one person specifies to another, who than does so to a third and some details get left out as they will. On Powercon feed thru fixture whips and jumpers between them...
Assuming a 20A circuit breaker, what mistakes in powering up gear at you comfortable with? Can your training and supervision overcome mistakes that can and will happen, or idiot proof to ensure safety against a mistake?
Again also - don't trust cable you are provided unless molded for an end. Ofen what you get is loose in terminal or at times mis-wired. There is no such thing as a Powercon... to something or itself tester on the market at this point. I have invented a few based off the stage pin tester, and XLR cable tester concepts. LED dpt. people have already plugged one of my testers into line voltage. Suspect they were? Na, I have no idea, perhaps re-charging the 9v battery with 208v was their thoughts in blowing up the tester by "accident" - or just being idiots. Not the first time this has happened.
Rather have a cable tester get destroyed than a show not working following a mistake. Challenge is the LED dpt. manager "didn't know it happened", and in being "upset" has not found out who did it, and didn't tell him about the problem. Think that problem with who did it goes a little deeper than that by way of training, management, and those doing the job.
Given this, if you have a feed thru LED fixture, but 20 AMP breakers feeding the circuit, how much do you trust your eyes to be everywhere during the cabling of these lights with the proper size of cable feeding or feeding thru them?
Although that was a lengthy post, I will reply only to one part. Yes, most low draw fixtures have pass throughs for power. Yes, people could chain way too many together if not properly instructed, and YES if that happened under my watch, it would be my fault. This may be a new concept to people with limited experience on this forum, but it is commonplace as to how legal liability works in the real world. If you are in charge, you are responsible. Same thing if an engineer specs a 30' span for a bridge, but the construction crew builds it at 40', and the foreman does not notice; it is the foreman's fault, not the engineer's. You cannot idiot proof everything; you can only carefully watch the idiots.
Lyle Williams
Well-Known Member
Anything we use, if we keep using it long enough, will fail. Sometimes failures happen rapidly due to damage. Sometimes failures happen slowly. Sometimes gear ships in a faulty state from the factory.
Anything with safety implications (ie, obviously electric cabling fits here) should be subject to an inspection and test regime.
I have in the past discovered a batch of factory miswired power cables.
If you are using powercon, make up adapters so you can test the cables.
Anything with safety implications (ie, obviously electric cabling fits here) should be subject to an inspection and test regime.
I have in the past discovered a batch of factory miswired power cables.
If you are using powercon, make up adapters so you can test the cables.
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
Sorry if my past posts were too many words, too many points I was replying to and a point to make about education and training good but sometimes certain parts fall thru the training in key points. (Why I normally post long messages.) I'll try harder in the future to have less words about important stuff to convey ideas.
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