Practical physics question: casters and wagons and weight.

Doug Lowthian

Active Member
Problem: Wagon with 4 adults, furniture, bedding, etc for Wonka that will need to be moved upstage and downstage (about 12 feet) several times during Act 1. Estimated weight, nearly 1000 lbs. (considering 4 healthy American adults, etc; Has not been built yet).

Need to be able to move it using as few people as possible (likely 2-3 youth).

Question: To make such a thing easier to overcome inertia and move, is it better to have many smaller (but sturdy) casters or fewer larger diameter casters or some other combo of the above? Will larger diameter casters move such a load easier?

Thoughts? Still in design phase, but need to start building this week.

Thank you all in advance...
 
My take on this. Larger harder plastic wheel will roll very easy. I've been using a red polyurethane wheel and most of the time my problem is the platform moves too easily. The biggest problem I have with swivel casters is that to move the platform in the opposite direction you have to force the wheels to rotate into the proper direction. I would use the fewest wheels I could. 4 if possible or 6 if the weight is too great. More wheels will cause more noise as they rollover irregular floor surfaces.
Smaller hard surface wheels will probable dig into your floor more and cause damage.
What you really want are zero-throw or triple wheel casters. They will solve most of these issues, but the are very expensive, although only a one-time purchase.
Here is a wheel guide from Rosebrand.
http://www.rosebrand.com/subcategory211/rigging-stage-hardware-theatrical-casters.aspx?sid=lpRRZzxTRT7mqtfCQnMIc0vS/AvMkGzfRoXQFzgUUc8MeENU37E+/g==
 
Is it just moving upstate/downstage? If so straight casters are preferred.

How big are you planning to build the actual platform?
 
There is no less friction option than steel wheels on steel. While flanged wheels and some angles are great, plain steel wheels and flat bar will work, with a guide of course.

The more both the wheel and rolling surface squish and deform, the more force required.
 
There is no less friction option than steel wheels on steel. While flanged wheels and some angles are great, plain steel wheels and flat bar will work, with a guide of course.

The more both the wheel and rolling surface squish and deform, the more force required.
Ah, but steel casters on a not-flat floor - IMPOSSIBLE! I didn't know that until recently. I thought they would work great on my concrete floors, but they aren't perfectly flat and always have something granular on them. Impossible to move a wagon of stock platforms. I recastered with 8" swivels (some from Northern Tools, some from Amazon, some from a legit caster company).
 
Ah, but steel casters on a not-flat floor - IMPOSSIBLE! I didn't know that until recently. I thought they would work great on my concrete floors, but they aren't perfectly flat and always have something granular on them. Impossible to move a wagon of stock platforms. I recastered with 8" swivels (some from Northern Tools, some from Amazon, some from a legit caster company).

That's why he said steel wheels on steel. If you put some steel flat stock on the deck for the wheels to roll over then it should roll very smoothly.
 
That's why he said steel wheels on steel. If you put some steel flat stock on the deck for the wheels to roll over then it should roll very smoothly.
@techieman33 If you put equi-sided steel 90 degree angle face down on top of your steel flat bar and use V-Groove casters to roll along the back of your steel angles you almost need to hold things back from wanting to roll. Seating wagons atop orchestra pit lifts are often supported and motorized this way.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
 
FWIW the 40,000 pound seat wagons at Schermerhorn Hall are steel rollers on wood floor in use, on concrete slab for storage. They do clean pretty thoroughly before moving.
 
FWIW the 40,000 pound seat wagons at Schermerhorn Hall are steel rollers on wood floor in use, on concrete slab for storage. They do clean pretty thoroughly before moving.
@BillConnerFASTC In the same FWIW vein, There are four seating wagons in Hamilton, Ontario's Hamilton Place Great Hall, two per lift x two lifts with rows EE - HH storing one level down and rows AA - DD storing two levels down below the trap room, instrument storage and the hydraulics room for the two lifts. In their storage areas, they run on permanently installed steel tracks comprised of approximately 1/4" x 6" flat bar with inverted steel angles welded atop. The two wooden stage lifts have flush metal inserts with threaded fillers installed. When the seating wagons are required on the lifts, similarly constructed tracks are rolled into place, their storage / transit casters removed, the fillers are unbolted from the inserts, the tracks positioned and specially machined Allen head cap screws secure the tracks laterally while gravity holds them securely in place. Been that way since 1973 and, to my knowledge, still works well. I've seen people try to reinvent the wheel a few times but, thus far, the wheel appears to keep on winning. The architect's original design had the wagons supported by ~8" to 10" swivelling casters with locks for the swivel's rotation and the rolling of the caster. This just DID NOT work as it was too, too, time and labor consuming trying to correctly align the four wagons when on the lifts. Trying to have them line up neatly around all of their perimeter edges without damage due to overhanging edges was its own little time and labor intensive nightmare. Once we got through the six week opening festival, the general contractor brought in his brother in law and the steel tracks with vee-wheels system came into being. The four wagons motor along with each powered by a reversible electric motor through reduction gears to a pair of approximately 10" pneumatic rubber tires forced tightly against the floor by a stout compression spring. The pneumatic tires attain adequate grip on the concrete floors in the storage areas and leave only easily washed off dirt marks on the darkly finished wooden stage decks.
The hall is one of two Russell Johnson / Artec designs in my area with the other being in Kitchener Waterloo.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
 
This is good stuff. Great food for thought....

Some answers to clarifying questions above.
  • Stage is smooth hard wood (like a gym floor), with no option to drill into to secure rails or tracks, and a need to protect from any gouging.
  • Wagon will be about 9' x 7' approximately.
  • Wagon needs to move on stage from wing on SR to CS, then US/DS several times until curtain at end of Act 1.
  • I'm leaning towards the 6-8"" diameter polyurethane wheels mentioned above. If I can find ones that are swiveled with a locking swivel (like the ones Ron said did not work!), I may do that. In the case Ron described I can see the pain-in-the-ass factor. In my case it may be the better way to go.
Thanks all!
 
Second for the triple swivels Bill linked to above. That's what I used for my 4'x16' barricade for Les Mis, and was able to do a DS move, 180, 180, 360, and US move with only 2 people at any time pushing (there were 12 people on the barricade while moving). It will tend to want to drift slightly left or right, but that usually has to do with the level of the floor as opposed to the casters.

For braking purposes I would get high quality wagon brakes, and add a block with rubber on the bottom to the end of the stop. Using 4 of these across the back you should be able to lock the US edge down enough to keep the unit from swinging around in place. AS per the discussion in another thread these should be applying pressure to the floor, but not lifting the wagon.
 
Any opinions on these 'Rotocasters" from Rose Brand?
RotaCasters-2.jpg


http://www.rosebrand.com/product3626/5-Rotacasters.aspx?id=3626&tid=2&info=caster+polyurethane
 
I would suggest a Large diameter, "Urethane over Steel" wheeled swivel caster. Yes, you will have to allow for directional rotation when you change the axis of motion but, Zero throws are ridiculously expensive and unless you pay a LOT of money typically have a smaller diameter wheel so as to create an over all lower profile device.
 
Based on the information provided, I agree that triple swivels would be the ideal choice.
 

They work alright. They aren't as smooth as a triple swivel but they have a few advantages.
  • They can be put further out near the edge of a unit as they don't have a swivel radius. This doesn't seem like a big deal but when you have tall skinny units having to put the center of the triple swivel 6" or more in from the edge can be a big deal. These are nice because they can be flush against the inside of the framing/facing.
  • They take up a lot less room in the framing. Leaves more room for batteries, weights, whatever people want to put in the base of wagons.
  • They are cheaper than a triple swivel. The quad wheel is only 70$ from Rosebrand.
The disadvantages to them, from my experience at least:
  • They are louder than a triple swivel.
  • While they do roll very easily straight (the direction along the 'main wheel') they don't roll very well perpendicular to that. It will still roll that way, but the rolling friction is about double from the main direction.
  • Because of the above disadvantage, a wagon with these kinds of casters is 'squirrely' if you need to do arcing movements or smooth choreography with the unit.
  • Their weight capacity isn't as high as a triple swivel, depending on the model.

Having said all that, I regularly use triple swivels and have only used those Rotacasters once or twice for very specialty situations. I second what BillConnorASTC said that the triple swivels are a good investment. Buy them slowly unit by unit as the budget allows and build up a stock of them over time.
 
I also agree that your best option are the Triple Swivels. Great investment. Years ago we took a small pickup and modified it into a set piece. Then mounted a steel subframe and used low profile 1.5"x4" swivel casters. Unit weighed about 600# empty. 3 actors "drove/rode" the truck at one time. All action was completed by 2 very small stagehands who weighed in at 125# each. They had lots of trouble.

We went in, modified the framing and mounted 4 Triple Swivels. The unit moved effortlessly around the stage and the young stagehands were very thankful.

Sold me on the value of the Triple Swivel.
 

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