Vintage Lighting pre-halogen lamp types/codes for Altman 360 (radial, not Q)?

htroberts

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Sorry if this has been answered before, but I searched and didn't see it. (I also Googled, but the results are heavily skewed to the 360Q).

Does anyone have a reference for the pre-halogen (i.e. not EGE/EGG) lamps that were appropriate for Altman 360s? (again, not the later 360Q)

Follow-on would be whether they're possible to find these days...

Thanks in advance.
Heath
 

RonHebbard

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Sorry if this has been answered before, but I searched and didn't see it. (I also Googled, but the results are heavily skewed to the 360Q).

Does anyone have a reference for the pre-halogen (i.e. not EGE/EGG) lamps that were appropriate for Altman 360s? (again, not the later 360Q)

Follow-on would be whether they're possible to find these days...

Thanks in advance.
Heath
@htroberts From memory: 500T12/9 with many end users installing 750T12/9's, 250 watts more than the Altman 360's reflectors and ventilation were designed to handle. Either lamp is likely 'unobtaineum' in this day and age. I'm amazed you could squeeze a BTL into an Altman 360. A BTL is WRONG for so many reasons: The BTL is a T20 and thus 2 1/2 " in diameter and also has an appreciably shorter LCL. I've heard BTL's can still be found but you MOST emphatically DO NOT want BTL's in your Altman 360's; Altman 6" Fresnels, yes, sure, but NOT in your Altman 360's.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 

derekleffew

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htroberts

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A search for 750T12/9 returns this Amazon link as well as many eBay hits.
okay, so:

a: is this a quartz-halogen lamp or (what? evacuated?) incandescent?
b: this is a 750W lamp, which is "too hot" according to original design intent of the 360?

(I searched earlier for 500T20/9 on eBay & amazon and found nothing--500T12/9 turns up one listing--we're saying the 360 uses a T12 lamp with a 1-1/2" envelope, yes?--T20 sounded too large...)

again, thanks
 

derekleffew

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RonHebbard

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okay, so:

a: is this a quartz-halogen lamp or (what? evacuated?) incandescent?
b: this is a 750W lamp, which is "too hot" according to original design intent of the 360?

(I searched earlier for 500T20/9 on eBay & amazon and found nothing--500T12/9 turns up one listing--we're saying the 360 uses a T12 lamp with a 1-1/2" envelope, yes?--T20 sounded too large...)

again, thanks
@htroberts T20's would definitely be too large. I was INCORRECT when I mentioned the BTL, I was remembering its T20 500 watt medium pre focus based incandescent predecessor.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 

DELO72

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Have you tried contacting Altman? If anyone would know.... Sorry, this information predates my knowledge by many years. If you could find out the LCL of the former lamp, I could look it up in my ANSI booklet (do a search on 500W P28s lamps with that LCL and a T12 envelope) and throw out some suggestions. Does it insert axially into a reflector, or does it sit upright like in Fresnels, in front of a spherical reflector?
 
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derekleffew

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Does it insert axially into a reflector, or does it sit upright like in Fresnels, in front of a spherical reflector?
Neither. It's a radial ERS.




I've never heard that the Altman 360 could not take a 750w lamp. It might be that the 750w didn't exist at the beginning of the 360's life, but I doubt it.
Well, what do ya know? Correcting myself, the attached cutsheet (360-6x9.pdf), from 11/91, says "UL Listed for 500 watts."

However, I dare say...putting a 750w EGG in a 360-6x9 is different (and safer) than putting an FEL 1000w in a 360Q-6x9.

Just for fun, the cutsheet for 360-6x12 (360-6x12.pdf) from the same era DOES say a 750w lamp is permissible. I suspect...more room inside equals more chance for heat to dissipate and less likelihood of cracked lenses.

@STEVETERRY , back in the day,
How did your shop feel about lamping 360-6x9 with 750w?
How about FEL in a 360Q-6x9?
Be honest; you're under oath.
 

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STEVETERRY

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Neither. It's a radial ERS.




Well, what do ya know? Correcting myself, the attached cutsheet (360-6x9.pdf), from 11/91, says "UL Listed for 500 watts."

However, I dare say...putting a 750w EGG in a 360-6x9 is different (and safer) than putting an FEL 1000w in a 360Q-6x9.

Just for fun, the cutsheet for 360-6x12 (360-6x12.pdf) from the same era DOES say a 750w lamp is permissible. I suspect...more room inside equals more chance for heat to dissipate and less likelihood of cracked lenses.

@STEVETERRY , back in the day,
How did your shop feel about lamping 360-6x9 with 750w?
How about FEL in a 360Q-6x9?

Be honest; you're under oath.
I have no knowledge of that, Senator--we had no 360 radial units in rental.

But 1kW FEL in 360Q--all the time. Just used up a lot of sockets and shutters. That was the price of admission. :)


ST
 

SteveB

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I have no knowledge of that, Senator--we had no 360 radial units in rental.

But 1kW FEL in 360Q--all the time. Just used up a lot of sockets and shutters. That was the price of admission. :)


ST
I have this memory of Tharon Musser describing a design she did with a ring of Altman 3.5” ellipsoidals, really packed together, all lamps with FEL’s. Dreamgirls maybe ?
 
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ship

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DNS G.E. #21795 CL, Incd. (HRG) 500 w T-12 c-13D LCL 3.1/2" P-28s (Base Up ±30°) Low Noise 2,950°K 11,000 Lum 200hr
DNS/FMC Osram/Sylvania #64655 (500T6) CL, Quartz 500 w T-6 c-13D LCL 3.467" Med Pf (CRI 100) Any Pos. 3,050°K 11,000 Lum 500hr
DNS Philips #44483-6 CL, Incd. 500 w T-12 c-13D LCL 3.1/2" P-28s Base Down to Horz. 3,050°K 10,200 Lum 200hr
FMC/DNS Ushio #1000208 (JCS120v-500wB2P28) CL, Quartz 500 w T-19mm c-13D LCL 3.1/2" P-28s/24 Base Up ±30° 3,050°K 11,000 Lum 500
DNS/FMC Wiko CL, Incd. 500 w T-12 c-13D LCL 88.9mm P-28s 3,000°K 11,000 Lum 200hr
DNS Halco CL, Incd. 500 w T-12 c-13D P-28s Base Up 3,050°K 11,000 Lum 200hr
EGC G.E. #39134 5/CL, Quartz (HRG) 500 w. T-12 cc-8 LCL 3.1/2" P-28s Universal Burn Position 3,150°K 12,700 Lum 500
EGC/EGD Osram/Sylvania #54644 (Q500/5CL/P) 500 w. T-4 Med. Pf 13,000 Lum 150hr
EGC/EGD Ushio #1000273 (JCV120v-500wC) CL, Quartz 500 w. T-14mm cc-8 LCL 3.1/2" P-28s/24 Any Burn Pos. 3,150°K 12,700 Lum 500
EGC Wiko CL, Quartz 500 w T-4 cc-8 LCL 88.9mm P-28s 3,200°K 13,000 Lum 300hr
EGC Norman Lamps 5/CL, Quartz 500 w T-12 LCL 3.1/2" Med.Pf 3,150°K 12,700 Lum 500hr
EGC Halco CL, Quartz 500 w T-4 cc-8 P-28s Any Burn Pos. 3,150°K 12,700 Lum 500hr

EGE G.E. #39135 CL, Quartz (HRG) 500 w. T-4 cc-8 LCL 3.1/2" P-28s (18x5mm Filmt.) Universal Burn Position 2,950°K 10,450 Lum 2,000
EGE Philips #26969-6 CL, Quartz 500 w. cc-8 LCL 3½” Med. Pf (100 CRI) 3,000°K 10,000 Lum 2,000hr
EGE Osram/Sylvania #54648 (Q500CL/P), CL, Quartz 500 w T-4 LCL 88.9mm Med. Pf Any Burn Pos. 3,000°K 10,450 Lum 2,000hr
EGE Ushio #1000274 (JCV120v-500wB) CL, Quartz 500 w. T-14mm cc-8 LCL 88.9mm P-28s/24 Any Burn Pos. 3,000°K 10,450 Lum 2,000hr
EGE Wiko CL, Quartz 500 w T-4 cc-8 LCL 88.9mm P-28s 3,000°K 10,000 Lum 2,000hr
EGE Norman Lamps CL, Quartz 500 w T-4 LCL 3.1/2" Med.Pf 2,950°K 10,450 Lum 2,000hr
EGE Halco CL, ?Incd. 500 w ?G-9.1/2 cc-8 P-28s Any Burn Pos. 2,950°K 10,450 Lum 2,000hr

and the 750w
DNT G.E. #22100 (?disc.) (Disc.) CL, Incd (HRG) 750 w. T-12 c-13D LCL 3.1/2" P-28s Base Up ±30° 17,000 Lum 200hr
DNT/FMD Osram/Sylvania #54658 (750T7) CL, Quartz 750 w. T-7 LCL 88.9mm Med.Pf Base UP to Horz. 3,050°K 17,000 Lum 500hr
DNT/FMD Ushio #1000209 (JCS120v-1000wCP28) CL, Quartz 750 w. T-22mm c-13D LCL 3.1/2" P-28s/24 Base Up ±30° 3,050°K 17,000 Lum 500hr
DNT/FMD Wiko CL, Quartz 750 w T-12 c-13D LCL 88.9mm P-28s 3,050°K 17,000 Lum 200hr
DNT Halco CL, Quartz 750 w T-7 c-13D P-28s Any Burn Pos. 3,050°K 17,000 Lum 200hr
EGF G.E. #31936 4/Cl, Quartz (HRG) 750 w T-6 cc-8 LCL 3.1/2" P-28s Any Burn Position 3,200°K 20,400 Lum 500hr
EGF Ushio #1000275 (JCV120v-750wC) CL, Quartz 750 w T-19mm cc-8 LCL 3.1/2" P-28s Any Burn Pos. 3,200°K 20,400 Lum 500hr
EGF Wiko CL, Quartz 750 w cc-8 LCL 88.9mm P-28s 3,200°K 20,000 Lum 250hr
EGF Norman Lamps CL, Quartz 750 w T-6 LCL 3.1/2" Med.Pf 3,200°K 20,400 Lum 500hr
EGG G.E. #39137 CL, Quartz (HRG) 750 w. T-6 cc-8 LCL 3.1/2" P-28s Any Burn Position 2,900°K 15,750 Lum 2,000hr
EGG Osram/Sylvania #54652 (Q750CL/P), CL, Quartz 750 w. T-5 Med. Pf 15,000 Lum 2,000hr
EGG Philips #26973-8 CL, Quartz 750 w. cc-8 LCL 3.1/2" Med. Pf (100 CRI) 3,000°K 15,000 Lum 2,000hr
EGG Ushio #1000276 (JCV120v-750wB) CL, Quartz 750 w T-19mm cc-8 LCL 3.1/2" P-28s Any Burn Pos. 3,000°K 15,750 Lum 2,000hr
EGG Wiko CL, Quartz 750 w cc-8 LCL 88.9mm P-28s 3,000°K 15,000 Lum 2,000hr
EGG Norman Lamps CL, Quartz 750 w T-6 LCL 3.1/2" Med.Pf 3,000°K 15,750 Lum 2,000hr
EGG Halco CL, Quartz 750 w T-6 cc-8 P-28s Any Burn Pos. 3,000°K 15,000 Lum 2,000hr
 

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STEVETERRY

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Sounds likely, as Dreamgirls was the stair thing with steps that changed colors. Tharon did that as well, but this is 35 years ago, memories as fuzzy......
Err...the iconic lighted steps were in the Will Rogers Follies, for which Jules Fisher won the Best Lighting Design Tony award in 1991.

The steps were perhaps the first onstage use of the then-new 3M light control films, known as SOLF and TRAF. The steps were end-fed by fixtures that had the ill-fated, never-ever-worked-right Rosco scroller designed by Jack Jester. If ever a scenic application needed LED tape--that was it.

ST
 

derekleffew

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This seems you're suggesting the 500T12 is equivalent to a DNS, but it can't be--they have dramatically different diameters. I believe but am not positive the DNS is another quartz-halogen (or tungsten-halogen) lamp (actually, with the small diameter, it almost certainly is)...
It's certainly confusing. My 1979 GE stage/Studio Lamp pocket catalog lists DNS, DNT as ANSI codes for 500T12/9 and 750T12/9, but "modern" sources certainly more resemble EGE, EGG. I guess maybe the ANSI specs changed over time?

radial_ers_lamps.jpg
 
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STEVETERRY

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It's certainly confusing. My 1979 GE stage/Studio Lamp pocket catalog lists DNS, DNT as ANSI codes for 500T12/9 and 750T12/9, but "modern" sources certainly more resemble EGE, EGG. I guess maybe the ANSI specs changed over time?

View attachment 18474
The bottom line is that the long coiled-coil CC-8 filament of the EGG and similar lamps was a piss-poor substitute for the C-13D filament of a 750T12 when used in a radial ERS. It looked just awful, which is one reason the redesigned reflector of the axial ERS's that used EHG and FEL lamps was accepted so quickly.

ST
 

derekleffew

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Gee, Mr. Terry, it's almost as if you are saying that a filament with, say, FOUR shorter segments (SOURCEs, if you will) is better than one longer one.;)

For the reverse, one poster here on CB reported that he tried a GLC instead of an EHG in his Kliegl Bros. 1355 radial ERS and the result was unusable. I tried to argue that it was the 1355 itself was unusable, but perhaps that's a different issue. "Flatted" and "double-flatted" reflectors made a would of difference, when matched to the correct lamp.
 

ship

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CC-8 verses C-13D filament... Admit even I am not up to snuff about filament design structure terms. Sure I have the notes, many manuals from GE to Osram and all brands, and a wealth of texts read, but not the thorough understanding germane sufficient that I understand sufficient filament design as it relatetes to reflector design..

I suspect this filament structure is kind of important as seen in MR-16 lamps or small capsule lamps if either of you or others can to all in educating the science of in how to understand this. It's a debate that's a seemingly trainable moment to teach us of.

"Flatted" and "double-flatted" reflectors made a would of difference, when matched to the correct lamp.

Interesting science for all to know more about in learning.

Random from a listing of G-5.3-GY3.6 filament listings... (one line per lamp I have notes on in some filaments not listed). Note a lot of filament size (MMxMM in different sytstem but also important), reference to axial or transerve, and a lot of filament stuctures. Just notes for me even if I somewhat understood the manuals. Not jermain, but in raising the issue, perhaps not sufficient to under stand.

From notes in filament structure notes: Around G-5.3 thru 6Y.35 capsule lamps in random list from the list. How to present this info for the next generation in training about important debate? And history of lamp/reflector science?


Axial Fmt
cc-8
1.1x2.6mm
1.7x3.3mm
Axial

1.25x3mm
1.2x3.2mm
c-6
3x3mm
3.3x1.6mm
c-6
Axial
Transv
5.2x1.6mm


Trans Ax
Axial
c-6
T-3
C-6
3.3x1.6mm
c-60Val
cBar 6
c-Bar-6
c-6

c-6

Axial Fmt




c-6
c-6
Axial
TransAx
c-6
Axial
Axial
c-6



c-6
c-8
c-6


c-6
c-60Val
c-6
c-6

c-6
c-6
c-6
c-6
c-6



TransAx
c-6
c-6

c-6
Axial
c-8


2x5mm
2x5mm
1.6x4.2mm
2.9x1.8mm

Axial
Axial
c-6

c-6





cc-2V
cc-2V


c-6
Axial Fmt
cc-8
4.3x2mm
cc-8


Axial
Axial


c-6
c-6, TR
Axial


c-8


c-6
c-8
c-6
c-6
c-6
c-6
c-6

c-6

c-6
cc-8

c-6

cc-8
cc-8

c-6
Axial Fmt
cc-8

Axual


Axial

5.8x2.9mm
4.6x3mm
4.5x3.5mm
4.3x3.1mm

c-6 Oval
4.2x2.3mm
c-6F
4.2x2.3mm
c6 Oval
c-Bar-6
c-6 Oval
c-6


Axial Fmt

Axial
Trans Ax


c-6

C-6 Oval
c-Bar-6
c-6
c-6
cc-6 Transv
c-6
4.7x2.7mm
c-6F
4.8x3mm
c60Val
cBar6
c-Bar-6
c-6
cc-6
c-8
c-8
c-6

c-Bar-6
c-Bar-6
cc-6
c-6



c-6
 
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