Vintage Lighting pre-halogen lamp types/codes for Altman 360 (radial, not Q)?

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by htroberts, Sep 13, 2019.

  1. htroberts

    htroberts Member

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    Sorry if this has been answered before, but I searched and didn't see it. (I also Googled, but the results are heavily skewed to the 360Q).

    Does anyone have a reference for the pre-halogen (i.e. not EGE/EGG) lamps that were appropriate for Altman 360s? (again, not the later 360Q)

    Follow-on would be whether they're possible to find these days...

    Thanks in advance.
    Heath
     
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  2. RonHebbard

    RonHebbard Well-Known Member Premium Member

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  3. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    Incorrect. BTL is the 500w T-6 quartz-iodide version of the incandescent 500T20/64 (ANSI code: DNW) used in the Altman 65 and many other 6" Fresnel s. LCL is 2-3/16" as opposed to the 3-1/2" of the 500T12/9 (DNS) or EGE.

    A search for 750T12/9 returns this Amazon link as well as many eBay hits.
    [​IMG]
     
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  4. htroberts

    htroberts Member

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    okay, so:

    a: is this a quartz-halogen lamp or (what? evacuated?) incandescent?
    b: this is a 750W lamp, which is "too hot" according to original design intent of the 360?

    (I searched earlier for 500T20/9 on eBay & amazon and found nothing--500T12/9 turns up one listing--we're saying the 360 uses a T12 lamp with a 1-1/2" envelope, yes?--T20 sounded too large...)

    again, thanks
     
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  5. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    It's a pre-T/H, incandescent stage/studio lamp.

    I've never heard that the Altman 360 could not take a 750w lamp. It might be that the 750w didn't exist at the beginning of the 360's life, but I doubt it.

    Don't make me call @ship or @DELO72 . ;)
     
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  6. RonHebbard

    RonHebbard Well-Known Member Premium Member

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  7. DELO72

    DELO72 Well-Known Member

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  8. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    Neither. It's a radial ERS.

    [​IMG]


    Well, what do ya know? Correcting myself, the attached cutsheet (360-6x9.pdf), from 11/91, says "UL Listed for 500 watts."

    However, I dare say...putting a 750w EGG in a 360-6x9 is different (and safer) than putting an FEL 1000w in a 360Q-6x9.

    Just for fun, the cutsheet for 360-6x12 (360-6x12.pdf) from the same era DOES say a 750w lamp is permissible. I suspect...more room inside equals more chance for heat to dissipate and less likelihood of cracked lenses.

    @STEVETERRY , back in the day,
    How did your shop feel about lamping 360-6x9 with 750w?
    How about FEL in a 360Q-6x9?
    Be honest; you're under oath.
     

    Attached Files:

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  9. STEVETERRY

    STEVETERRY Well-Known Member

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  10. SteveB

    SteveB Well-Known Member

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    I have this memory of Tharon Musser describing a design she did with a ring of Altman 3.5” ellipsoidals, really packed together, all lamps with FEL’s. Dreamgirls maybe ?
     
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  11. htroberts

    htroberts Member

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    This seems you're suggesting the 500T12 is equivalent to a DNS, but it can't be--they have dramatically different diameters. I believe but am not positive the DNS is another quartz-halogen (or tungsten-halogen) lamp (actually, with the small diameter, it almost certainly is)...

    Thanks again for the info.
     
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  12. STEVETERRY

    STEVETERRY Well-Known Member

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  13. SteveB

    SteveB Well-Known Member

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    Sounds likely, as Dreamgirls was the stair thing with steps that changed colors. Tharon did that as well, but this is 35 years ago, memories as fuzzy......
     
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  14. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    DNS G.E. #21795 CL, Incd. (HRG) 500 w T-12 c-13D LCL 3.1/2" P-28s (Base Up ±30°) Low Noise 2,950°K 11,000 Lum 200hr
    DNS/FMC Osram/Sylvania #64655 (500T6) CL, Quartz 500 w T-6 c-13D LCL 3.467" Med Pf (CRI 100) Any Pos. 3,050°K 11,000 Lum 500hr
    DNS Philips #44483-6 CL, Incd. 500 w T-12 c-13D LCL 3.1/2" P-28s Base Down to Horz. 3,050°K 10,200 Lum 200hr
    FMC/DNS Ushio #1000208 (JCS120v-500wB2P28) CL, Quartz 500 w T-19mm c-13D LCL 3.1/2" P-28s/24 Base Up ±30° 3,050°K 11,000 Lum 500
    DNS/FMC Wiko CL, Incd. 500 w T-12 c-13D LCL 88.9mm P-28s 3,000°K 11,000 Lum 200hr
    DNS Halco CL, Incd. 500 w T-12 c-13D P-28s Base Up 3,050°K 11,000 Lum 200hr
    EGC G.E. #39134 5/CL, Quartz (HRG) 500 w. T-12 cc-8 LCL 3.1/2" P-28s Universal Burn Position 3,150°K 12,700 Lum 500
    EGC/EGD Osram/Sylvania #54644 (Q500/5CL/P) 500 w. T-4 Med. Pf 13,000 Lum 150hr
    EGC/EGD Ushio #1000273 (JCV120v-500wC) CL, Quartz 500 w. T-14mm cc-8 LCL 3.1/2" P-28s/24 Any Burn Pos. 3,150°K 12,700 Lum 500
    EGC Wiko CL, Quartz 500 w T-4 cc-8 LCL 88.9mm P-28s 3,200°K 13,000 Lum 300hr
    EGC Norman Lamps 5/CL, Quartz 500 w T-12 LCL 3.1/2" Med.Pf 3,150°K 12,700 Lum 500hr
    EGC Halco CL, Quartz 500 w T-4 cc-8 P-28s Any Burn Pos. 3,150°K 12,700 Lum 500hr

    EGE G.E. #39135 CL, Quartz (HRG) 500 w. T-4 cc-8 LCL 3.1/2" P-28s (18x5mm Filmt.) Universal Burn Position 2,950°K 10,450 Lum 2,000
    EGE Philips #26969-6 CL, Quartz 500 w. cc-8 LCL 3½” Med. Pf (100 CRI) 3,000°K 10,000 Lum 2,000hr
    EGE Osram/Sylvania #54648 (Q500CL/P), CL, Quartz 500 w T-4 LCL 88.9mm Med. Pf Any Burn Pos. 3,000°K 10,450 Lum 2,000hr
    EGE Ushio #1000274 (JCV120v-500wB) CL, Quartz 500 w. T-14mm cc-8 LCL 88.9mm P-28s/24 Any Burn Pos. 3,000°K 10,450 Lum 2,000hr
    EGE Wiko CL, Quartz 500 w T-4 cc-8 LCL 88.9mm P-28s 3,000°K 10,000 Lum 2,000hr
    EGE Norman Lamps CL, Quartz 500 w T-4 LCL 3.1/2" Med.Pf 2,950°K 10,450 Lum 2,000hr
    EGE Halco CL, ?Incd. 500 w ?G-9.1/2 cc-8 P-28s Any Burn Pos. 2,950°K 10,450 Lum 2,000hr

    and the 750w
    DNT G.E. #22100 (?disc.) (Disc.) CL, Incd (HRG) 750 w. T-12 c-13D LCL 3.1/2" P-28s Base Up ±30° 17,000 Lum 200hr
    DNT/FMD Osram/Sylvania #54658 (750T7) CL, Quartz 750 w. T-7 LCL 88.9mm Med.Pf Base UP to Horz. 3,050°K 17,000 Lum 500hr
    DNT/FMD Ushio #1000209 (JCS120v-1000wCP28) CL, Quartz 750 w. T-22mm c-13D LCL 3.1/2" P-28s/24 Base Up ±30° 3,050°K 17,000 Lum 500hr
    DNT/FMD Wiko CL, Quartz 750 w T-12 c-13D LCL 88.9mm P-28s 3,050°K 17,000 Lum 200hr
    DNT Halco CL, Quartz 750 w T-7 c-13D P-28s Any Burn Pos. 3,050°K 17,000 Lum 200hr
    EGF G.E. #31936 4/Cl, Quartz (HRG) 750 w T-6 cc-8 LCL 3.1/2" P-28s Any Burn Position 3,200°K 20,400 Lum 500hr
    EGF Ushio #1000275 (JCV120v-750wC) CL, Quartz 750 w T-19mm cc-8 LCL 3.1/2" P-28s Any Burn Pos. 3,200°K 20,400 Lum 500hr
    EGF Wiko CL, Quartz 750 w cc-8 LCL 88.9mm P-28s 3,200°K 20,000 Lum 250hr
    EGF Norman Lamps CL, Quartz 750 w T-6 LCL 3.1/2" Med.Pf 3,200°K 20,400 Lum 500hr
    EGG G.E. #39137 CL, Quartz (HRG) 750 w. T-6 cc-8 LCL 3.1/2" P-28s Any Burn Position 2,900°K 15,750 Lum 2,000hr
    EGG Osram/Sylvania #54652 (Q750CL/P), CL, Quartz 750 w. T-5 Med. Pf 15,000 Lum 2,000hr
    EGG Philips #26973-8 CL, Quartz 750 w. cc-8 LCL 3.1/2" Med. Pf (100 CRI) 3,000°K 15,000 Lum 2,000hr
    EGG Ushio #1000276 (JCV120v-750wB) CL, Quartz 750 w T-19mm cc-8 LCL 3.1/2" P-28s Any Burn Pos. 3,000°K 15,750 Lum 2,000hr
    EGG Wiko CL, Quartz 750 w cc-8 LCL 88.9mm P-28s 3,000°K 15,000 Lum 2,000hr
    EGG Norman Lamps CL, Quartz 750 w T-6 LCL 3.1/2" Med.Pf 3,000°K 15,750 Lum 2,000hr
    EGG Halco CL, Quartz 750 w T-6 cc-8 P-28s Any Burn Pos. 3,000°K 15,000 Lum 2,000hr
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Sep 14, 2019
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  15. STEVETERRY

    STEVETERRY Well-Known Member

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  16. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    It's certainly confusing. My 1979 GE stage/Studio Lamp pocket catalog lists DNS, DNT as ANSI codes for 500T12/9 and 750T12/9, but "modern" sources certainly more resemble EGE, EGG. I guess maybe the ANSI specs changed over time?

    radial_ers_lamps.jpg
     
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  17. STEVETERRY

    STEVETERRY Well-Known Member

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  18. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    Gee, Mr. Terry, it's almost as if you are saying that a filament with, say, FOUR shorter segments (SOURCEs, if you will) is better than one longer one.;)

    For the reverse, one poster here on CB reported that he tried a GLC instead of an EHG in his Kliegl Bros. 1355 radial ERS and the result was unusable. I tried to argue that it was the 1355 itself was unusable, but perhaps that's a different issue. "Flatted" and "double-flatted" reflectors made a would of difference, when matched to the correct lamp.
     
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  19. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Sent to work and I'll add to my lamp spec's, thanks.
     
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  20. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    CC-8 verses C-13D filament... Admit even I am not up to snuff about filament design structure terms. Sure I have the notes, many manuals from GE to Osram and all brands, and a wealth of texts read, but not the thorough understanding germane sufficient that I understand sufficient filament design as it relatetes to reflector design..

    I suspect this filament structure is kind of important as seen in MR-16 lamps or small capsule lamps if either of you or others can to all in educating the science of in how to understand this. It's a debate that's a seemingly trainable moment to teach us of.

    "Flatted" and "double-flatted" reflectors made a would of difference, when matched to the correct lamp.

    Interesting science for all to know more about in learning.

    Random from a listing of G-5.3-GY3.6 filament listings... (one line per lamp I have notes on in some filaments not listed). Note a lot of filament size (MMxMM in different sytstem but also important), reference to axial or transerve, and a lot of filament stuctures. Just notes for me even if I somewhat understood the manuals. Not jermain, but in raising the issue, perhaps not sufficient to under stand.

    From notes in filament structure notes: Around G-5.3 thru 6Y.35 capsule lamps in random list from the list. How to present this info for the next generation in training about important debate? And history of lamp/reflector science?


    Axial Fmt
    cc-8
    1.1x2.6mm
    1.7x3.3mm
    Axial

    1.25x3mm
    1.2x3.2mm
    c-6
    3x3mm
    3.3x1.6mm
    c-6
    Axial
    Transv
    5.2x1.6mm


    Trans Ax
    Axial
    c-6
    T-3
    C-6
    3.3x1.6mm
    c-60Val
    cBar 6
    c-Bar-6
    c-6

    c-6

    Axial Fmt




    c-6
    c-6
    Axial
    TransAx
    c-6
    Axial
    Axial
    c-6



    c-6
    c-8
    c-6


    c-6
    c-60Val
    c-6
    c-6

    c-6
    c-6
    c-6
    c-6
    c-6



    TransAx
    c-6
    c-6

    c-6
    Axial
    c-8


    2x5mm
    2x5mm
    1.6x4.2mm
    2.9x1.8mm

    Axial
    Axial
    c-6

    c-6





    cc-2V
    cc-2V


    c-6
    Axial Fmt
    cc-8
    4.3x2mm
    cc-8


    Axial
    Axial


    c-6
    c-6, TR
    Axial


    c-8


    c-6
    c-8
    c-6
    c-6
    c-6
    c-6
    c-6

    c-6

    c-6
    cc-8

    c-6

    cc-8
    cc-8

    c-6
    Axial Fmt
    cc-8

    Axual


    Axial

    5.8x2.9mm
    4.6x3mm
    4.5x3.5mm
    4.3x3.1mm

    c-6 Oval
    4.2x2.3mm
    c-6F
    4.2x2.3mm
    c6 Oval
    c-Bar-6
    c-6 Oval
    c-6


    Axial Fmt

    Axial
    Trans Ax


    c-6

    C-6 Oval
    c-Bar-6
    c-6
    c-6
    cc-6 Transv
    c-6
    4.7x2.7mm
    c-6F
    4.8x3mm
    c60Val
    cBar6
    c-Bar-6
    c-6
    cc-6
    c-8
    c-8
    c-6

    c-Bar-6
    c-Bar-6
    cc-6
    c-6



    c-6
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
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