BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
That was on a wish list for a new project. My first meeting with the school is next week. Anyone have any ideas of what they have in mind?
"prefer motorized with a manual override"
- Thread starterBillConnerFASTC
- Start date
If we're talking about electrics, I could see wanting to be able to manually adjust them so you can get them to the same trim height every time. Often I lower my electrics a bit for shows and if I need to fly something in to adjust focus, it can be quite annoying trying to get them back to the correct height.
Can't think of any point to this. I could see spending the big bugs (EDIT:, bucks)
on variable speed for scenery, but fixed rate for electrics is OK.
We've used Clancy Power Assist motorized line sets for a few years, they work great and are accurate, as are the 2 line shafts on our ladders. Only complaint is they use a neon indicator to tell you you've hit one of 4 targets but not which one. I wish an LCD number instead
on variable speed for scenery, but fixed rate for electrics is OK.
We've used Clancy Power Assist motorized line sets for a few years, they work great and are accurate, as are the 2 line shafts on our ladders. Only complaint is they use a neon indicator to tell you you've hit one of 4 targets but not which one. I wish an LCD number instead
Last edited:
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
Hmmmm. What am I missing? Controls definitely digital and readouts as to elevation and presets - not just up and down buttons. And I was proposing all motorized - probably 24-32 sets - not just electrics.
What I was trying to figure out was what do they think is electric but if motor is not working they can run manually? I once saw a system that was basically manual but had means to connect and disconnect a counterweight assist. (IIRC KA has a variant of this - small one line Big Tows driving abor heavy sets?)
Right now, I think all motorized at least for the 24+ sets with a mix of capacities and fixed and variable speeds - assigned masking and electrics rather than all flexible - is just twice the cost of manual - product, install, infrastructure, electrical cost, etc. - total project cost. Not bad as I'm sure it was 5 to 8 times 10-15 years ago.
Are they equal? That's hard to agree on. Every counterweight set is naturally variable speed and possible to run at speed of or above the typical fast package hoist. Capacities - I routinely make every counterweight set 2000 pounds but a motorized set for a border might be 600 pounds max - so is that "equal"? Not simple questions.
I do believe that we should be moving toward motorizing rigging faster than we are. Power steering, power brakes, power garaged doors, powered everything - except stage rigging. The more there is, the better it will be, and the less expensive it will be. I see evidence frequently of crashed counterweight sets. Have not seen a motorized set crash yet.
I suspect we'll settle on motorized electrics and shell ceiling, and rest manual, in which case with rigging pit I'll use a power assist type device on those. Easy to add on or subtract with the rigging pit, easy to wire, easy to service. Pragmatism (AKA budget) usually wins out.
Still want to know what they are thinking of or what salesman came up with this appealing phrase for what product.
What I was trying to figure out was what do they think is electric but if motor is not working they can run manually? I once saw a system that was basically manual but had means to connect and disconnect a counterweight assist. (IIRC KA has a variant of this - small one line Big Tows driving abor heavy sets?)
Right now, I think all motorized at least for the 24+ sets with a mix of capacities and fixed and variable speeds - assigned masking and electrics rather than all flexible - is just twice the cost of manual - product, install, infrastructure, electrical cost, etc. - total project cost. Not bad as I'm sure it was 5 to 8 times 10-15 years ago.
Are they equal? That's hard to agree on. Every counterweight set is naturally variable speed and possible to run at speed of or above the typical fast package hoist. Capacities - I routinely make every counterweight set 2000 pounds but a motorized set for a border might be 600 pounds max - so is that "equal"? Not simple questions.
I do believe that we should be moving toward motorizing rigging faster than we are. Power steering, power brakes, power garaged doors, powered everything - except stage rigging. The more there is, the better it will be, and the less expensive it will be. I see evidence frequently of crashed counterweight sets. Have not seen a motorized set crash yet.
I suspect we'll settle on motorized electrics and shell ceiling, and rest manual, in which case with rigging pit I'll use a power assist type device on those. Easy to add on or subtract with the rigging pit, easy to wire, easy to service. Pragmatism (AKA budget) usually wins out.
Still want to know what they are thinking of or what salesman came up with this appealing phrase for what product.
techieman33
Well-Known Member
Just like with power steering, brakes, and everything else it took time. Not many people decided they needed power steering or brakes enough to spend money and retrofit them to their current car. They waited until they bought a new car to worry about that, the current system worked well enough. Same deal here, not many spaces are going to spend that kind of money to replace something they already have that works just fine. The change will come with new spaces and big renovations.
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
Partially agreeing, this is an all new build space. And the title should be in quotes - came from them.
Also working on a school with a probably late 1950s or early 1960s era counterweight system. Junk the day it was installed in my opinion - cast iron - pot metal - everything. 6 x 7 sash cord lift lines. No loading bridge. Spooky and stage is closed for good cause. Add to this it was designed for cloth drops and lighting that weighed very little compared to today's. The shell of the building is fine, almost distinguished in its art deco detail. I believe an obvious candidate to replace with motorized for lots of reasons. My guess is the school will probably opt for removing and dead hang however, and once again the performing arts takes a hit.
Still trying to discover what "motorized with a manual override" could be.
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
Well, certainly Clancy's Power Assist is just that - a way to drive a counterweight set up yo 1000 pounds out of balance. But hardly provides a manual back-pedaling unless having a contractor come in and remove the drive, and restore floor block, rope lock, and handline.
techieman33
Well-Known Member
One of the colleges that I occasionally work at has their main setup so it can be run manually or on the winch. When the winch is engaged they leave the rope locks open (they have them on the deck and the mid rail.) And if they want to run it manually they just pull a ring that mechanically disconnects the line from the winch, then run it like a normal line. When they want it back on the winch they pull the other ring and it reengages the winch.
The mods are happy to oblige...
What Rigger?
I'm so fly....I Neverland.
porkchop
Well-Known Member
I skipped through some of the comments so forgive me if this has been covered, but this sounds like someone asking for a simple control panel so they or some other crotchety old stagehand don't have to mess with any darn computers just to bump in lineset. When I read that I'm imagining a panel that has a keyed switch to take manual control, a rotary selector switch to choose your lineset and jog up and down buttons. It's manual in that they can just take control and go without writing a cue. Obviously the automation server is handling things like brakes, default AVDs, and limits in the background anyway, but the customer doesn't need to worry about that at this point. I'm not wild about the idea, but I can see how a TD that's inexperienced with automation could see doing any and all trim adjustments from a console as an unnecessary hassle at times.
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
Interesting thoughts and very appreciated. I'll see what I learn when meeting with them this week. I'm guessing they simply are not knowledgeable about what is available. And as usual, the person that will be responsible for this - td or other title - has not been hired and probably won't be till near completion of construction. Just public school administrators, faculty, and staff who don't have a stage currently.
The Clancy Power Assist mostly meets this description, as the basic control head is just individual winch controls per line set. No central computer.
It's got a key switch (so can be locked), a target light, Up and Down buttons and a deadmans button, for reasons that escape me as the Up/Down buttons are momentary. You set a target by pressing in and locking the deadmans switch, turning and holding the key to the right, then holding the down button and pressing Up as many times as you want the target number, you get 4 targets. It's pretty simple and has been reliable.
kicknargel
Well-Known Member
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
A good possibility. Hopefully I'll find out Thursday in my first meeting with them.
@BillConnerFASTC Your query has been nagging at me since you posted and I woke up with the following dawning on me this morning:
A nearby newly constructed theatre had a similar phrase in conjunction with their three overhead truck dock doors and permanently installed adjustable deck plates. What they wanted was manually operated, spring counter balanced, overhead doors operated via continuous loops of operating chain and two or four truck ramps of two suitable sizes. Their thinking was as follows:
- Use two of he three doors for the theatre and the third for a refuse bin. If someone had a better idea for handling garbage and / or recycling, they'd use the third dock for non production deliveries such as bar and cleaning supplies. They were also thinking loose ramps weren't dependent upon power / control systems and could be used within trucks for "dance floor" applicatons. You know what i mean by "dance floor" in trucker terms; a small ramp to get heavy items on & off the raised floor over the fifth wheel. What your FASTC buddies from Broadway insisted upon was push button electrically operated doors with photo sensors and safety edges coupled with mechanically adjusted, spring loaded, ramps permanently installed within each of the three docks.
The first winter was . . . I want to say "Hell" but I'll be polite and type "undesirable". I'll try not to rant. It was a non-union / anti-union general contractor running a job in a pro-union town with several union subcontractors. As is so often the case, the project was falling behind schedule and then winter arrived. The GC was insisting upon folks not leaving vehicles parked in the docks and booking dock time the night before deliveries. People would show up and we'd have to open and close the doors manually because the electrician's had yet to turn the doors over to the GC. The adjustable dock plates were seizing up with snow / ice and the responsibility of dealing with them had yet to be assigned to anyone. You'd schedule a dock time for 8:00 a.m. and the GC would assign you a dock. The next morning you'd arrive early to have your dock shovelled out and ready for your truck only to have someone important to the GC arrive and be told to use your dock. Your truck arrives on schedule, carrying his own dock plates, and not only can't get into his dock but is asked if he can loan his dock plates to aid a few other truckers.
I understand this is more of a project coordination problem than the fault of the doors and integral dock plates but OH HOW MANY TIMES several of us construction contractors wished the owners had stuck to their guns and insisted on the loose dock plates they'd requested from the get-go. When we eventually left the site, the owners leaned on our boss to leave two dock plates and a couple of ladders behind for their first month until they convinced the city's safety folks to stop debating who to blame and spring a few bucks for a few essentials. Trying to get a door closed against an icy / windy winter when its safety edge is insisting on raising the door since it knows it's hit something above dock level when that "something" is simply an inch or two of frozen ice, water, sand and salt gets pretty frustrating. At times like that you just want to say "Phuque off door! Just let me pull you down tight to the ice and stuff a few rags under you!"
Yeah, I'll admit to having talked to a few contrary devices in my time.
WITH APOLOGIES FOR RANTING and I've once again flapped my mouth too much.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
I, for one enjoy your RANTS, they are always informative and to be literary and/or theatrical, "Please sir may I have some more?"
Now to use today's word of the day:
You are not at all ultracrepidarian.
Similar threads
