Press GO off an iPad ?

Would you be confident in using an iPad as a "RemoteGO"?

  • Total voters
    45
  • Poll closed .
S

SteveB

Well-Known Member
A co-worker is the LS &SM for an upcoming tour and the LD and PM are concerned that she will not be able to call cues and run console from FOH due to visibility issues. Thus they are exploring using an Ion as the touring desk with a WiFi link to the ETC iPad/Phone App so that she could "Press Go" from the pad.

I suggested that this might be problematic and un-reliable, given the flakiness of WiFi for a critical requirement.

Has anybody done this / attempted this ?. Do you think it's OK ?. Weigh in.
 
I would never run a show from an iphone/ipad. Between the possibility of wifi failure and the iphone/ipad app crashing it's just not worth the chance.
 
(Poll added. Please vote (early and often:!:) if you haven't already.)

SteveB said:
...and the LD and PM are concerned that she will not be able to call cues and run console from FOH due to visibility issues. ...
Click to expand...
Not sure I understand. Will the SM, or the desk, or both, or neither, be at FOH?

How about a "RemoteGO" button box (or even a foot pedal)?
 
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I agree with the above, Using a consumer grade device to connect and run a professional show just sounds like a bad idea. It may work for a while but when it doesn't it will be the worst decision in my point of view. Our successes are noted but our failures are criticized.
 
Never. I have used mine for similar applications for rehearsals and just toying with the idea, but I would not trust it during an actual show. There is just too much that could go wrong.
 
Trusting this during a show is a big no-no, but I have used the iRfr app from ETC for a part of a show where the entire crew was onstage... that included me, so I just took out all of the stage light/put up house lights from the app at the end of the segment (which was the end of the show). If ETC had a go button in their app, I would've used it for one cue that wasn't super important or critical (b/c we have an architectural system for houselights).
 
I'll have to join the kick line of folks who think this is generally a pretty poor idea, for a lot of the good reasons thrown around above. However, the notion of trying to take this idea on the road seems to me to be not nearly fully baked........
 
iPads (imho) are reliable, but I will never use a wireless or portable device (microphones and speakers (I created wireless speakers on the fly once which actually turned out much better than expected) excluded). I have had too many issues with a phone or ipod not functioning when it's needed. Thank goodness it was during a rehearsal. I quickly pointed out the error of their ways to my techies.
 
I wouldn't say that using an iPad is a guaranteed recipe for disaster, just that lots of testing in worst-case environments would be needed before relying on it with no backup. I'd still prefer a physically wired controller (which you could even DIY) over wireless anything, be it an iPad or any other tablet, phone, etc...

As for actual application tips, definitely bring along a separate Wi-Fi network that'll be secured and used only for this purpose. Make sure to survey the wi-fi landscape in each location to determine which channels are occupied. Make sure the iPad is fresh from a reboot and not jailbroken/etc to reduce chances of a crash.
 
This is one of those times when one of my golden rules comes out to play...
NEVER use wireless where you can use a cable instead...

Ignoring the intricacies of getting the WiFi to anything approach show grade stability, what's the latency like between the app and the console execution?
WiFi particularly has latency that's both not low and non deterministic which I think could lead to a compromise of the artistic vision, if go is being pressed and there is a delay to execution...

Also, how is this person getting comms? If that's going to be on Copper, then surely it's simple enough to throw some form of hardwired control there as well...

There was a discussion over on PSW some years back about getting reasonably reliable WiFi in a production context. I think in that instance it had to do with noise boys using tablets to tweak DSPs - probably acrosss a stadium or the like. The challenge I feel is that since then, the proliferation of WiFi has significantly increased. all it takes is someone with Bluetooth running on their mobile next to the iPad and you've got a nice little interference source and potential dropout of your show critical link...
 
I would never use wireless for show critical applications. I have worked with audio guys who have used wifi for monitoring amps and processing but if it dropped signal the show would go on. I used to go out with a vista console and used a tablet as my rfu. I would have it drop out several times usually due to buildings or local interference. I would definitely go a wired route.
 
While I have used iRFR on an iPod touch in a relatively small space to run cues for an understudy rehearsal, I would not want to use it as my primary GO button due to reasons of Wifi latency and stability, and lack of a tactile button for both GO and for BACK. Also, each building will present significant differences in architecture and different requirements for where to place access points. A better solution, one that may even require less cable running, might be a hardwired ION Client laptop or net top. This will also allow for better monitoring of the lighting environment, and easier adjusting of things in case of needing to compensate for blown lamps or unresponsive scrollers/intelligent fixtures that may need to be parked out. Depending on infrastructure, just having a bigger station for the SM and placing the ION right there might work better. Even if the ION isn't directly at arm's length, the keyboard and its SPACE key to trigger GO can be via a short USB Extension cable.
 
I have been using iPhone 2 & 4 & iPod Touch & iPad 1 on my Ion system for over a year, and I am very pleased. I use them when running around, the sound stages, but since I'm only using <$100 netgear WAP's they do drop out, or have trouble getting the signal at times. During pre-production the signal seems fine, but once we are on production there is just so much traffic around I really struggle to connect. (I was talking about iRFR & RFR with Alan in the shop @ ETC West today about this and he actually said that he recommends disabling WiFi to clients doing live shows due to instability)I have the ETC RFR as well, and will use RFR on set during takes. I feel the ETC RFR is far more stable a remote for on camera shots. I am very happy to have both systems running, as it saves my RFR batteries for when it really needs to work. I've plugged RFR into an outlet when sitting on set, just to make sure I have juice when it is needed. As it is explained to me the ETC RFR uses a different and much wider bandwidth than WAPs, thus it boots far better and doesn't drop out. The rest of the other departments seems very impressed that I can run the console from my handheld devices but I prefer reliable to impressive!
I agree with you Steve, I feel it WOULD be problematic & un-reliable on a daily basis. There are a few very reliable options I would go with in your co-workers situation. If it has to be wireless I personally would use the ETC RFR: plugged into AC so as to not run out of battery life.
 
I would advise against Wifi where possible. I tried out Remote Palette over wifi the otherday, and ther was severe (as in measured in seconds) latencey at 10 meters, and this is with only 2 wifi networks nearby!
 
Wifi can be used with success in show critical situations. We put out a show last year where wifi is used to fly and control a piece of scenery that has performers on it. And this year we've put out two shows with wireless roving platforms that not only sent control data over wifi but estop as well. To do it though you have to buy industrial grade wireless gear, and not the stuff that you can get at best buy for a hundred bucks. We've used gear from both siemens and cisco and both have worked. Range is also a big issue, we've never done more than 150'-200'.

I cant comment on the Ipad though cause ive never used one, but in all the situations that we used wifi it was using our automation system.

Just read something in someone else post that I also wanted to comment on, and that is that while we have had success with wifi now we do realize that in the future this is going to become an issue as the wifi spectrum gets more and more crowded with devices at venues, but we decided that we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. Also if this tour is going outside of the US be very careful because different countries have different laws regarding wifi usage. Particularly in Europe.
 
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I think it could be ok, depending on the situation. Make sure you test it thoroughly before committing to it. It might be great for rehearsals, but you may not want to rely on it with an audience.

What I always consider when thinking about things like this is 'what is the worst-case scenario?'. I'd make sure you have someone else at the actual console and good communication systems so that if in the worst case of the WiFi completely failing, they could take over and nobody would notice.
 
derekleffew said:
(Poll added. Please vote (early and often:!:) if you haven't already.)


Not sure I understand. Will the SM, or the desk, or both, or neither, be at FOH?

How about a "RemoteGO" button box (or even a foot pedal)?
Click to expand...

I really don't have all the info. about what they're trying to do and why. I believe they want the SM visible on-stage at some point, wireless headset and all, being seen by the audience as she triggers the cues, or something to that effect. I also think that on past tours of this same artist, the SM was in the booth with the console operator, but did not actually press GO. If the tour is now traveling with a console, in order to make the whole iPad/WiFi thing work, they could as readily travel with an Express, plop it backstage and give the SM a wired RFU with it's A/B Go button. MUCH more reliable !.
 
Traitor800 said:
that not only sent control data over wifi but estop as well.
Click to expand...

I'd be interested in how the programming was setup to deal with link loss on the E Stop.
The way I'd be doin g it would be to have a "supervised" link pinged every second or more frequently and in the event that link is lost to go into stop mode immediately...
Any ideas if this was the way it was or if when the link dropped it all kept going?
 
Chris15 said:
I'd be interested in how the programming was setup to deal with link loss on the E Stop.
The way I'd be doin g it would be to have a "supervised" link pinged every second or more frequently and in the event that link is lost to go into stop mode immediately...
Any ideas if this was the way it was or if when the link dropped it all kept going?
Click to expand...

Sounds like the most reasonable, basically only keep going if getting signal, constantly check instruction signal...

Anyhow, FWIW, I voted yes, I dont see why not, the device can be used for specific things in specific times. Perhaps I should have voted other, because its not always the best choice, but if it was, I would have no problem using it. Just another tool, if you need it use it, if not dont. Same with mics, if you need it wireless, make it, but if you dont, plug it in.
 
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