Printed Gel??

[Aaron Clarke]

As a small community theatre (which I think non-profit/low budget houses is where your gel market will eventually go as the LED conversion continues) I see one major pro and one major con:

Pro: The idea I could order specific cuts (2 R80, 2 R77) for a show and I'm not buying extra which may or may not get used or having that 2" of waste depending on the size I could see as a big savings.

Con: Keeping the printing in house and in one spot actually slows turn around time. I love that I can call my local supplier that is 60 miles at 4pm say I need a sheet of whatever, they pop it in a tube drop at post office and I get it at 11am the next day. Since they can get it to me that fast with minimal shipping costs it saves us money. Most of our 'designers' don't plan ahead so a day or two turn around time plus I would assume higher shipping costs for me to get the product would probably hurt us in the long run.

Though, is all honestly you guys at least could do the same since you're only about 100 miles from me

I love the idea of special custom cuts and gradients though.

 

[JohnD]

Well now @GreyWyvern and @Kelite interesting stuff. I should point out my query about hi-res, hi-temp gobos is when I thought this could be a locally owned setup. That would be great for event planners. Since the model is for production to take place at Apollo HQ that is sort of moot.
Now in my Mr. Troublemaker persona, I think it's time to bring back the Linnebach projector. No more having to paint with that smelly colorine on a plastic sheet.

 

[GreyWyvern]

Con: Keeping the printing in house and in one spot actually slows turn around time. I love that I can call my local supplier that is 60 miles at 4pm say I need a sheet of whatever, they pop it in a tube drop at post office and I get it at 11am the next day. Since they can get it to me that fast with minimal shipping costs it saves us money. Most of our 'designers' don't plan ahead so a day or two turn around time plus I would assume higher shipping costs for me to get the product would probably hurt us in the long run.

Very good point. Just like you probably keep stock of colors you use regularly, I'm sure that most dealers would still keep stock of the gel they already do. It would just be printed gel rather than traditional. If you need a color you don't normally use, and therefore have to order it, and it is one that your dealer doesn't stock because they don't see orders for it much, you are waiting for it the same amount of time as you would if we pulled a sheet out of stock to ship. Nothing would really change in how you get your gel.

Great conversation. Please keep it going!

 

[rsmentele]

My 2 cents. I think the adaptation to the change in manufacturing would be up to the end users. If the colors are consistent and hold up well over time, I dont think the customer's will mind at all.

I think this new technology really affects the dealers more than anyone. I can't tell you how much my warehouse folks hate counting out gel sheets when we get a new order in to stock our shelves. Having one shelf full of blank sheets and a printer sitting on top is much more attractive to me as a dealer than what we currently have. No more guessing what gel to stock more or less. When a customer has a specific need for a gel that never sells, I can print him 10 sheets and not wait for the order to come in from the manufacturer.

It's almost like the paint store model. Shelves full of blank cans. Pick your color and Ill have it ready in a minute. It also opens opportunities to print custom colors... Or... have a gel you love but you dont know the number or manufacturer? Ill color match it for you.

I love it!

 

[Joel N]

Sounds intriguing - but I have a number of questions.
1 - what are you selling? A machine that prints gel, sheets of material I can put in my epson printer, special inks I can put in my printer or what? If selling a machine whats the footprint?
2 - Whats the price point and cost per sheet?
3 - What is the anticipated time to print a sheet of 'pastel' color ( like R02) How about an intense color ( R80)
4 - What is the cost difference in an R80 vs a R02 ( ink costs).

For me I would have to know:
What is my cost per sheet using your product?
What is the upfront costs for setting things up .
How quickly does it print?

If the answers are favorable - yes I would be interested. If it costs $20000 for the machine - and a sheet of acetate is $8.00 and it takes 10 minutes - probably not.
( Assuming of course that the gel it produces is good color, does not quickly fade, etc);

John Chenault

John,
Great questions!!

1) Price per sheet would be comparable to present pricing
2) sheet print time would vary but and we know we need to match present saturation levels.
3) Cost per sheet would be the same no matter the color, ink is not too expensive in the application.

To better understand this is not something you could set up due to cost and difficulty, it is a 3 step process that needs to be done here at Apollo. It would allow quick ship in many colors both custom and standard.

Joel

 

[Joel N]

My 2 cents. I think the adaptation to the change in manufacturing would be up to the end users. If the colors are consistent and hold up well over time, I dont think the customer's will mind at all.

I think this new technology really affects the dealers more than anyone. I can't tell you how much my warehouse folks hate counting out gel sheets when we get a new order in to stock our shelves. Having one shelf full of blank sheets and a printer sitting on top is much more attractive to me as a dealer than what we currently have. No more guessing what gel to stock more or less. When a customer has a specific need for a gel that never sells, I can print him 10 sheets and not wait for the order to come in from the manufacturer.

It's almost like the paint store model. Shelves full of blank cans. Pick your color and Ill have it ready in a minute. It also opens opportunities to print custom colors... Or... have a gel you love but you dont know the number or manufacturer? Ill color match it for you.

I love it!

JN,

This could not be done at the dealer level due to cost and complexity of the multistep process. It would be a manufacturing process set up at Apollo. This would allow you to order anything you need and mix and match colors on the same sheet with labels printed on each sheet or cut.

Joel

 

[Kelite]

If I wasnt playing catch up here because of the move I totally would of just to see this. Unfortunately I took gigs next week in advance before I knew about this.

I’m going to attempt to be at Clearwing Expo though if y’all will present it there to I would love to see it.

I'll be present at the Clearwing show and happy to show you anything I have with me!

 

[Footer]

A lightwright plugin that auto outputs a file that can be sent to you and you can print whatever color you need in just the quantities you need.... even Lee and Rosco colors....

I'm actually surprised you guys are even talking about this. If the product is as good as the normal process, why even talk about it? Why not just put it out there and go? Just as you changed from acid etched gobos to laser cut... the process does not matter as long as the end product is just as good if not better. We don't care how the sausage is made as long as the sausage tastes the same. Unless you are going to operate in a "just in time" model where you will overnight an entire order anywhere I don't even see how this benefits your vendors. I can call BMI right now and have any color to me tomorrow. If it is shipping from Indiana that might not be true.

So, in short, if it works as well or better then conventional gel go for it, who cares.

 

[Joel N]

A lightwright plugin that auto outputs a file that can be sent to you and you can print whatever color you need in just the quantities you need.... even Lee and Rosco colors....

I'm actually surprised you guys are even talking about this. If the product is as good as the normal process, why even talk about it? Why not just put it out there and go? Just as you changed from acid etched gobos to laser cut... the process does not matter as long as the end product is just as good if not better. We don't care how the sausage is made as long as the sausage tastes the same. Unless you are going to operate in a "just in time" model where you will overnight an entire order anywhere I don't even see how this benefits your vendors. I can call BMI right now and have any color to me tomorrow. If it is shipping from Indiana that might not be true.

So, in short, if it works as well or better then conventional gel go for it, who cares.

A lightwright plugin that auto outputs a file that can be sent to you and you can print whatever color you need in just the quantities you need.... even Lee and Rosco colors....

I'm actually surprised you guys are even talking about this. If the product is as good as the normal process, why even talk about it? Why not just put it out there and go? Just as you changed from acid etched gobos to laser cut... the process does not matter as long as the end product is just as good if not better. We don't care how the sausage is made as long as the sausage tastes the same. Unless you are going to operate in a "just in time" model where you will overnight an entire order anywhere I don't even see how this benefits your vendors. I can call BMI right now and have any color to me tomorrow. If it is shipping from Indiana that might not be true.

So, in short, if it works as well or better then conventional gel go for it, who cares.

Kyle,

We are bringing it up because of the cost commitment along with the time commitment. This will take a push on our part and another 4-6 months to bring to full production and product launch point. The laser gobo transition was easy since we were already making them. I could just run the numbers on a spread sheet and make it happen. To justify the cost commitment we have to increase our market share and the industry has to embrace it. LD's across the board have a pallet of gel colors they tend to use based on their experience and this would break that mold a bit. We just don't want to waste the time and money if the market is happy with their present vendors and see no real value.


Joel

 

[bdkdesigns]

Nothing would really change in how you get your gel.

It's been awhile since I've dealt with minimum sheet orders since I always order gobos too. If it still exists, would the 20 sheet minimum order still apply to this or would that be wiped out? A 20 sheet minimum order would wipe out the possible savings of getting a couple of colors on one sheet.

 

[Joel N]

It's been awhile since I've dealt with minimum sheet orders since I always order gobos too. If it still exists, would the 20 sheet minimum order still apply to this or would that be wiped out? A 20 sheet minimum order would wipe out the possible savings of getting a couple of colors on one sheet.

We are a little early to answer minimums but you could mix and match colors on the same sheet. Say a 24x24 sheet with 4 different gel colors on the same sheet with each having its color labeled along with cut lines.

Joel

 

[gafftaper]

I recommend you get 100% confident in your product and then ship out some free Gel to some well known heavy hitters (a Broadway show, Santa Fe Opera, Cirque, around here I nominate @JChenault). Get them to test them out side by side with the gel in their rig. If the printed gel matches colors and stands up over time, I think people will embrace it.

The convenience of being able to order an exact set of gels cut and ready to use for a show at the same cost would be great.

You also may want to consider direct sales. Although I love my local dealer, they are likely to put a 2 or 3 day delay into the system vs direct sales.

 

[derekleffew]

... We don't care how the sausage is made as long as the sausage tastes the same. ...

Dammit, Kyle, get out of my head. Exactly what I was thinking. To me, this doesn't seem all that revolutionary. A substrate is coated with pigment, so what. Personally, I prefer body-dyed, but perhaps that's just me.

Joel, I don't see you ever gaining market share because of this. The entire pie is getting smaller for all color media manufacturers, and will continue to shrink.

N.B.--Did Lee ever solve their problem with delivery of L181HT? https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/lee-high-temp-gel.23560/ (All HT media?)

 

[RonHebbard]

I recommend you get 100% confident in your product and then ship out some free Gel to some well known heavy hitters (a Broadway show, Santa Fe Opera, Cirque, around here I nominate @JChenault). Get them to test them out side by side with the gel in their rig. If the printed gel matches colors and stands up over time, I think people will embrace it.

The convenience of being able to order an exact set of gels cut and ready to use for a show at the same cost would be great.

You also may want to consider direct sales. Although I love my local dealer, they are likely to put a 2 or 3 day delay into the system vs direct sales.

@ApolloDesign @JChenault @Amiers Please permit me to throw one more query into the abyss:
What about frosts and color media with a specific directionality? Maybe I'm not phrasing my query correctly. I'm thinking of gels which intentionally spread a fixture's beam more one way, vertically for example, than horizontally. Rosco had number of these which were commonly used for cyc washes.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

 

[Amiers]

@RonHebbard Are you asking if they would be able to print on a frost or diffusion gel?

I know Rosco already has that available not sure of Applo but I would assume if one company can do it than the other can as well. In the first part of the video they explained how their process was to get rid of beam distortion so theoretically they could just print it on that way or put through a frost/diffusion and fill all the holes with the ink.


However you can just double down and put your color gel behind a frost/diffusion gel

 

[JohnD]

From my comfy armchair I'm thinking of marketing issues. From the timeline mentioned by @Joel N I'm thinking that USITT for the big ta-da rollout is cutting things a bit close, but LDI is a looooooong time to wait. Perhaps Infocomm is a better fit, and what better time to test it out. There is also a question of timing of trade shows. For educators the problem pops up that USITT might hit when in the midst of the spring musical and LDI when things are heating up for the fall season. Then when it comes to the possibility of fades and splits you would really need an app for that. Then lots of experiments, with fades you would have to test both fade to clear and fade to black and is this really practical. With splits there are so many options, split vertically, diagonally, 4 color in a pinwheel pattern, donuts with different sizes, splits with fades. Sheesh.

 

[RonHebbard]

@RonHebbard Are you asking if they would be able to print on a frost or diffusion gel?

I know Rosco already has that available not sure of Applo but I would assume if one company can do it than the other can as well. In the first part of the video they explained how their process was to get rid of beam distortion so theoretically they could just print it on that way or put through a frost/diffusion and fill all the holes with the ink.


However you can just double down and put your color gel behind a frost/diffusion gel

@Amiers What I'm asking is, regardless of their process, will they be able to supply / compete with Rosco's one way stretch products, plain frosted or otherwise? Will their process create one way spreading on flat substrate? Will they be able to duplicate and supply the same result regardless of how they achieve it. Hopefully I've asked the same question enough ways to have covered my query.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

 

[techieman33]

I agree about the sausage, I don't really care how the gel is made as long as the quality is there. I don't think most people will care either. If this was something a dealer or theater could do , and if they could do gobos as well then WOW that's a game changer. But if it's still all coming out of your manufacturing facility then I don't see it as being a big deal to the consumers. Yeah some people might want gradiants, split gels, or multiple colors on one sheet but it probably won't be that big of a market. I would probably just order a sheet and keep the extra on hand. This is all academic to me though since I don't stock apollo gel, and don't see that changing unless it starts popping up on tour riders.

 

[RickR]

I don't care about the sausage either!

But looking forward I agree that gel use is shrinking and will continue to shrink for many years. (decades?) Will costs rise so far that will face $20-50 a sheet? I can see it as the rising costs adds more power to the drive to convert to LED. If we ever get there then custom ordering will make far more sense.

Just how good are the colors? Are there patents on colors? If you can deliver matches to ALL your competitors colors at the same price then you have a better mouse trap!

 

[gafftaper]

@RickR I think has hit a key point. A zero inventory business model (preferably with a patented process) is definitely the way to be the last one standing in the Gel business. There will be a need for gels for a LONG time, but the demand will be less and less. Certainly not enough demand to support all the existing companies. So gel on demand makes a lot of sense.