Projector Help, large screen short throw

I'm looking at projector calculators on line. How many lumens/lux of light do I need to actually have on the screen in order to be seen with a full wash?

As for your question Kyle, I have about 8 or 9 productions every year here by my own school and other schools in the district. All of them really want to use projected backgrounds and keep trying to do front projection on my cyc... with less than acceptable results. So it's worth doing and I would be able to pay for it with money from rentals. Again this is a project which requires several years of saving up budget to pay for and while I wait the technology will get cheaper. My goal at this point is to educate myself enough to understand what I need and to get a rough price in mind. That way I don't have to drag a dealer in to do a bid which I won't act on for a couple years.
 
I'm looking at projector calculators on line. How many lumens/lux of light do I need to actually have on the screen in order to be seen with a full wash?
The brightness needed would depend on how much light your full wash puts on your screen. If you have a light meter, you might put up a wash and measure the ammount of light that reaches the screen that you would have to compete with. The target contrast ratio will ultimately determine the needed brightness.
 
FWIW, this is a Panasonic PTDW6300US (6000 lumen) with an ETDLE080 front projecting from LX1 (approx 28' away and 16' off the deck). They're from one of the dance recitals from years gone by so no tech rehearsal to tune anything and the camera was likely optimizing for faces. Note that the actors aren't casting any shadows on the back wall as long as they stay upstage, and in the crowd scene the shadows are blocked by the actors.

It's certainly not professional quality but might be a more reasonable approach than trying to engineer a solution for a 14' throw.

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44,300 lumens for a target contrast ratio of 10:1, ambient light of 10fc, and optimistically assuming your screen gain is 1.30. I'm going to bet you don't have $150,000 sitting around for this project though, so best to resign yourself early on to knowing you won't be using this screen for cinema simultaneous to stage lighting anytime soon.

If you are aiming for cinema without stage lighting, then you don't need nearly as many lumens. But throw that stage lighting into the mix and now you've got to ramp up your projector brightness.

Also, whichever lens you pick, you want to be on the wide angle end of it if it's a zoom lens. You can lose upwards of 60% of your lumens by choosing a lens/throw combination that puts your zoom ratio at the narrow end of the lens.

I'm not sure where you are getting such high numbers for the lumens since this is for stage projection, not cinema. I have only 50% more lumens for front projection, not on a projection screen, with a projection area around six times the size of what is needed here. With a front projection, at 10fc, the contrast ratio of the projector will drop to about 55% of that with no ambient light, requiring a much brighter projector. However, with a typical rear screen, you should still have close to 75% of that same contrast ratio. You would have to get up to around 25fc of ambient light on the rear screen to drop the contrast to the same level as that on the front screen.

Obviously, you will want a projector that will be a good general use projector as you don't know what content will be used from production to production. What you will quickly learn is that you want to design for what you have. The brightness and contrast required for cinema viewings is different for that of a typical projected set. Then again, with cinema, you shouldn't need to worry as much about the ambient light.

Also, there are some things to be wary of when considering ANSI Lumens. This is calculated using a full white field. You will likely never project this. Not all images will maintain color brightness as they do white brightness. The biggest culprit of this will be a single chip DLP projector. With a three panel LCD or three chip DLP, each color will be represented at the projector refresh rate. However, with a single chip DLP, the color brightness drops significantly due to the fewer times the color is represented during a single cycle. Here is a good primer on what I am talking about.

Not knowing the specifics of your screen (it should be printed on a label on a lower corner of the back), it is difficult to say exactly what you will need. That being said, you should be able to get away with 12-15,000 lumens if you were sticking with brighter images, but I agree with @Footer that you may want to look at a 20,000 lumen projector (like this or this). Mind you, the $50-75k price range will be average. You will really need dealers who will look at B-stock when posting bids.

One thing about contrast, when looking at the specs, watch out for overly inflated contrast ratios. The way that the sales literature will show an extremely high contrast ratio (advertised as dynamic contrast) since that can be what the uninformed may be looking for, is that to get the ratio, the projector will likely need to dim up to 50% of the stated ANSI lumens. Here is a nice warning article when seeing this for HDTV sales.

You will need to be more creative with your lighting designs to ensure the lowest amount of ambient light on the screen. This will often mean greatly diminishing lighting from FOH. Also, depending on the gloss of your floor, you may need to consider a variety of masking to reduce bounce. So, while this is opening a creative new world, you need to make many considerations to how you do productions.
 
Thanks guys. I'll do some more reading from Ruinexplorer's links. I need to find out our policy about buying used/B Stock gear, I'm seeing used, 3 chip, 20k projectors starting below $20,000 from places like Gearsource/Solaris and B stock for not a lot more. If I can go with one of these options this becomes a lot more affordable.
 
We use ProPresenter and Matrox Dual/Triple Head2Go products to edge blend on a budget all the time. Works like a charm.

Mke
 
There are, and I don't know off hand exactly who makes them, full color laser-beam projectors: they actually combine 3 Q-switched mono-spectral R G and B lasers into a collimated beam, and then scan it, usually using a pair of rotating mirror drums or something similar.

They have ridiculous throw distances, and are in focus *everywhere* -- I am told they use one to project moving video on the side of Stone Mountain in GA -- and keystoning them wouldn't be hard either, even for really steep angles.

If you have a fair amount of cash to throw at this, and didn't know these existed, they might be worth some research.
 
Not knowing the specifics of your screen (it should be printed on a label on a lower corner of the back), it is difficult to say exactly what you will need. That being said, you should be able to get away with 12-15,000 lumens if you were sticking with brighter images, but I agree with @Footer that you may want to look at a 20,000 lumen projector (like this or this). Mind you, the $50-75k price range will be average. You will really need dealers who will look at B-stock when posting bids.

One thing about contrast, when looking at the specs, watch out for overly inflated contrast ratios. The way that the sales literature will show an extremely high contrast ratio (advertised as dynamic contrast) since that can be what the uninformed may be looking for, is that to get the ratio, the projector will likely need to dim up to 50% of the stated ANSI lumens. Here is a nice warning article when seeing this for HDTV sales.

A couple thoughts, my university just purchased a Panasonic PT-DZ21KU and the street price listed at http://www.projectorcentral.com/Panasonic-PT-DZ21KU.htm is close to what we paid. We are shooting it on a 25'x15' front projection screen in a 650 seat classical music hall.

My gut feeling is that this is about the right size projector for you also.

To help figure out how bright of projector you need you can do some experiments with a smaller projector on a section of your screen. If, for example, a 5k projector gives a good image on a 9x16 section of your screen then a 20k projector will look pretty much the same on the full screen.

Do keep in mind however that the lamps loose brightness as they age. I did a measurement when replacing lamps on another projector recently and at ~1800 hours use (2000 hour life) the lamps had dropped to 50% of the brightness of the new lamps.

At Infocomm last year Panasonic also showed a 0.38 throw ratio lens for their large projectors, http://panasonic.net/avc/projector/products/d75le90/ this lens would let you mount the projector up and behind the screen. Do carefully work out from a cross section drawing to make sure that nothing would be in the way.

Hope this helps

Philip
 
There is one aspect of short throw RP projections that I have not seen discussed here. ( note this is not really my field, but it is my understanding of the physics). It could be that RP manufacturers have solved this problem since I last did any serious projection, so read this with a grain of salt. If anyone knows that this analysis is a load of excrement, Please post your thoughts. I would love the correction.



Any short throw RP screen will tend to have a bright center and dim edges. Why is this?

Consider the RP material and a beam of light from the projector ( at the left of the picture )
image.jpg



When the beam hits the RP material, it diffuses somewhat, but the majority of the light energy is near the axis of the original beam. In this sketch, the intensity of the light is depicted by the length of the arrow.

Now consider a RP with a very wide angle projector.

image.jpg

That we care about is how much light reaches our observer on the right. Due to the way the RP material scatters the light, the light hitting the edges of the screen will mostly continue in a straight line and only the edge of the diffused light will hit the observers eye. This means that the edge of the screen could be substantially dimmer than the center to outright observer.


This is one reason that using multiple projectors with edge blending will give you greatly improved intensity than a single bright projector with a wide lens.
 
John, this is somewhat correct. A lot will depend on the screen gain. The various types of screen will either focus the light or spread it. This is a direct correlation to the viewing angle and is true of both front and rear screens.
 
Once you get to the pricing stage, make sure you check to see if your district has any deals with certain manufacturers. Here we have a deal with Epson. They bargain price everything for us, so we buy just about all of our projectors through them. I'm sure they make up for the discounts by volume.
The only exceptions I can think of were for a pair of 11k's we needed with a 200' throw to a 10'x14' screen. Pretty much the opposite of the problem you have here!
 
John, this is somewhat correct. A lot will depend on the screen gain. The various types of screen will either focus the light or spread it. This is a direct correlation to the viewing angle and is true of both front and rear screens.

(exposing my ignorance here)
I'm confused.

My understanding of gain is that it is a measure of ( in a front projection screen) of how much light is directed back to the source. My mental model is 'How much of the crystals that they use in road signs that bounce the light back to your headlights have they mixed into the surface. From my college physics I have a memory of how those crystals work.

I can't wrap my head around how you could have a similar definition for an RP system. IE is the 'gain' of an RP system a measure of how much the light is scattered as it passes through the RP material ( in which case I can't understand how it could focus the light) -OR - can the RP be constructed such that the light that hits the extreme edge of the screen is re-focused back toward the center. If the later I can see how if could be said to focus, but I am very curious about the physics of the material as I can't see how it could work.

Could someone clear up my confusion please?
 
John, don't worry, many people get confused about screens and their differences. Here's a great explanation of the definition of gain and the variety of screen materials and how they affect the image transmission. You will note that on the Diffusion Rear Projection page that this aligns with your physics proposal.

I should mention that for projection standards, we are most concerned with the image that makes it to the eye of the viewer. So, this is why just knowing how bright a projector is, or it's stated contrast, gives us an incomplete set of data.
 
John, don't worry, many people get confused about screens and their differences. Here's a great explanation of the definition of gain and the variety of screen materials and how they affect the image transmission. You will note that on the Diffusion Rear Projection page that this aligns with your physics proposal.

I should mention that for projection standards, we are most concerned with the image that makes it to the eye of the viewer. So, this is why just knowing how bright a projector is, or it's stated contrast, gives us an incomplete set of data.


Excellent article. Thanks.

One question. Do they make optical RP screens in the kind of sizes gafftaper is talking about. Ie at what point does this become an unworkable approach?
 
I know that it is possible, depends on the manufacturer. Obviously, the price becomes prohibitive to many way before a they reach a screen that size.
 

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