Purchase line frayed by rope lock

MNicolai

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The purchase line on our main drape has started to fray at the standard trim for that soft good. The H&H rope lock appears to be the culprit. System's been in place for just 28 months.

Any recommendations on a remedy, preventing this from happening on other sets, and whether or not we should be replacing this rope?
 
Maybe try contacting your installer?
 
At 28 months old, it is mostly 'out of warranty', but your installer should still be able to help you out. Check your rope locks, make sure they're not too tight.


Are you getting this inspected annually? Was it like this at 12months, or 24 months?

Also make sure you are not using the rope lock as a brake. The line should always be at a complete stop before locking it.

Also, rope locks are only made to hold about 80lbs out of weight, if you're constantly running out of weight it might be straining the line more then needed.

But for sure contact your installer. 28 months old is still very new for a rigging system.
 
I agree with the aforementioned posts. Contact your installer or your preferred rigging contractor. If everything is being operated properly on a regular basis, you may had a cam that is not properly adjusted in the rope lock, or something that is stuck or not sized correctly.

~Dave
 
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whether or not we should be replacing this rope?

I think that might? be a decent idea. I wouldnt climb with a rope in anywhere near that poor of condition, not sure if you really want it on a lineset.
 
May or may not be relevant:
Perhaps What Rigger?, MPowers, Delbert, or another of our resident rigging experts, will tell us why spiking a purchase line as illustrated is not the best alternative?
 
We're keeping our installer out of the loop on this one. After problems with our fire curtain, line set spacing, and other clear errors in their rigging practices (such as nuts falling off of miscellaneous bolts after 12 months), we have a different rigger we contact for this sort of stuff. That rigger inspected the system about 12 months ago and this was not one of the bullet points in his report. I've already sent the photo to our head cheese who will probably contact the rigger in the next week or so.

With this being our main drape, the weight on this line set never changes, so the weight stack is well within the margin for the rope lock.

With the careful ease it requires to land the bottom of the drape squarely on the floor, I'd be surprised if anyone using our counterweight sets has found it advantageous to use the lock as a brake but I wouldn't rule the possibility out.
 
Tho only way I could accurately access this situation would be to make an on site inspection. That said, Yes the rope should be replaced as soon as possible. Has the problem just surfaced in the last few months? Or has it slowly been growing since the installation? I would love to see a couple more photos, one with a bit longer section of the rope shown on both sides of the damage and one showing the rope and lock at the same time with the curtain in the 'on spike" position, so I could see exactly where the damage is in relation to the curtain position. I would gather that the damage is shown with the curtain in the "down" position. What does the rope look like when the curtain is in the "other" position, i.e. all the way out? To be honest, unless the lock is defective with broken or jagged, sharp pieces in the cam, I find it difficult to imagine how it is causing the damage shown. It looks like a rope I replaced a few years ago and we found that one of the operators liked to run the line at speed, then slam the brake on to stop the motion. In order for that to work for him, he had over tightened the adjusting screw on the brake. I'm not saying that is the case here, only that it resembles a similar incident a while ago. If you are in a position to do so, and have a "qualified" person to do it, have that person completely secure the arbor in an approved manner for the operation, remove the rope from the bottom of the arbor and pull it through the lock. Now examine the interior of the lock for sharp or un-finished edges and surfaces. This may not solve your problem, but it is about the best I can do long distance.

As for the spiking method, I detest tape. It leaves goo on the rope, often slips along the rope or come off at the most inopportune time. Best way to spike is to use a short length of brightly colored ribbon or twill tape. Twist the lay of the rope slightly open, using your hands or a rope fid, and insert the ribbon so it sticks out about 1-2 inches on each side of the rope. The ribbon is easier to see coming even at high speed, and no, it does not get caught in the pulleys or locks! Stage Set X can be spiked with 1/4" ribbon or heavy knitting yarn, by using a large, rounded point needle, one about 6-9 inches long and about the diameter of a 10d nail with an eye, to work the casing apart and the ribbon or yarn through the outer casing.
 
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Tho only way I could accurately access this situation would be to make an on site inspection. That said, Yes the rope should be replaced as soon as possible. Has the problem just surfaced in the last few months? Or has it slowly been growing since the installation? I would love to see a couple more photos, one with a bit longer section of the rope shown on both sides of the damage and one showing the rope and lock at the same time with the curtain in the 'on spike" position, so I could see exactly where the damage is in relation to the curtain position. I would gather that the damage is shown with the curtain in the "down" position. What does the rope look like when the curtain is in the "other" position, i.e. all the way out? To be honest, unless the lock is defective with broken or jagged, sharp pieces in the cam, I find it difficult to imagine how it is causing the damage shown. It looks like a rope I replaced a few years ago and we found that one of the operators liked to run the line at speed, then slam the brake on to stop the motion. In order for that to work for him, he had over tightened the adjusting screw on the brake. I'm not saying that is the case here, only that it resembles a similar incident a while ago. If you are in a position to do so, and have a "qualified" person to do it, have that person completely secure the arbor in an approved manner for the operation, remove the rope from the bottom of the arbor and pull it through the lock. Now examine the interior of the lock for sharp or un-finished edges and surfaces. This may not solve your problem, but it is about the best I can do long distance.

As for the spiking method, I detest tape. It leaves goo on the rope, often slips along the rope or come off at the most inopportune time. Best way to spike is to use a short length of brightly colored ribbon. Twist the lay of the rope slightly open, using your hands or a rope fid, and insert the ribbon so it sticks out about 1-2 inches on each side of the rope. The ribbon is easier to see coming even at high speed, and no, it does not get caught in the pulleys or locks! Stage Set X can be spiked with 1/4" ribbon or heavy knitting yarn, by using a large, rounded point needle, one about 6-9 inches long and about the diameter of a 10d nail with an eye, to work the casing apart and the ribbon or yarn through the outer casing.

I'll try to remember to grab some more photos the next time I'm in. We were in the middle of a load-in when I noticed this so I grabbed just this photo and went back to what I was working on pretty quickly.

Yeah...tape sucks. I avoid it on the ropes but I'm not the only person who works in the theatre. There actually was a short piece of white ribbon (because someone thought white was a good color for this) twisted into the rope here, but I removed it for the photo so that were wasn't any confusion about what was the frayed ribbon and what was the frayed rope.

You are correct; this is a photo of the where the trim for the "in" position is.
 
I couldn't see the picture for some reason. Hopefully I will be able to see the additional ones.
 
Do you guillotine the main only?
or is it set at spike and then traveled?

Operating as a traveler temporarily adds weight to the line set in the form of the operators efforts to open and close the curtain. this puts a lot of stress on the rope at the lock.
if that lock has a burr or some minor imperfection it will likely chafe the rope.

not seeing any photos in this thread.
 
Sorry about that. The photo link seems to be in-and-out. Sometimes it shows, and other times it doesn't. Here's the photos as an attachment:

a6898ddc-cdbf-2571.jpg

We routinely guillotine for normal operations to get the drape in and out of the way, but for shows it's often used as a traveler.
 
I'll say +1 to what Mr. Powers has said. I'd like to also say: red-tag and "lock out" that lineset now. Replace that rope, and quick. By "lock out" I mean to secure that lineset so that nobody may operate it, and put out the word in writing and signage that nobody shall operate that lineset.

Short of that, I agree again with Mr. Powers that an onsite inspection is the only way to go here. Get your contractor/vendor/whomever it is you use, and get him/her in there now.

As for tape as a spike mark: ICK! The goo from the adhesive (especially if it's e-tape....dear lord), the ability for it to slip/move, or to get mangled up in the sheaves, etc...I could go on for days. Consult your rigger, and Jay Glerum's manual.
I'm not even so sure about using spike or gaff tape anymore, although some venues do allow it.
 
...

As for tape as a spike mark: ICK! The goo from the adhesive (especially if it's e-tape....dear lord), the ability for it to slip/move, or to get mangled up in the sheaves, etc...I could go on for days. Consult your rigger, and Jay Glerum's manual.
I'm not even so sure about using spike or gaff tape anymore, although some venues do allow it.
So what would your preferred method of marking the lineset be?
 
Chase,

Asked and answered. Look at post #8 in this thread.
 
Took a bunch of photos and locked the set out. We're calling our rigger next week to have him come take a look.

The gallery of photos can be found here and for the sake of conversation I've numbered the photos such that if someone comments about Photo #5, everyone knows exactly which photo they're talking about.

My notes from my visual inspection:
+ @ normal trim, rope in lock appears frayed on front, normal on back
+ @ high trim, rope in lock appears discolored on front, normal on back
 
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Good set of photos. I do not see any obvious reason for the problem, but if there is some, slight though it may be, evidence of damage at both the normal out trim and in trim, it would appear that something about the lock is a problem. Next the question becomes whether the problem is physically with the lock or with the application. I'm sure you have already looked, but just as a check on any/all possible causes, have you checked the rest of the purchase line for any evidence of wear or damage?

Have you or anyone from your facility contacted Reid at H&H about this? I'm sure that if there is a problem with the product itself, he will be interested in making it right.
 
We have not contacted anyone yet about this. Once a rigger has a chance to inspect it on site, I'll get in contact with anyone we may need to get in contact with. I did a once-over on the other purchase lines and didn't see any problems on other sets, but this one easily gets used more than the others (although not so much more that after 28 months ropes should be getting frayed).
 
Hello been around a while but never commented. Got a couple of questions for the original poster.

1. Does the spike mark get buried inside lock to represent on spike or do you stop just before enter lock or at top of lock handle or ring. I have seen many different techniques of spiking of the rope.

2. I may have missed location school or other public venue. Is the lock being used as a "brake" instead of a "lock". Heres my reasoning.
Seeing how much weight is on the arbor in the photo set some people out of laziness like to use the lock as a brake because they have not been properly shown how to control the load instead of naturally thinking hey the mechanical device is what is used why burn my hands on the expensive rope. And not being in control of the drape.
Also I see that the tape spike was a little tore up that has maybe made its way into the rope lock a couple of times. That's why I am thinking the lock is being used as a brake.
I always go by if my piece on the batten is 400lbs and i have 400lbs on arbor I am in control of 800lbs of movement. It may be in balance but I am moving this 400lbs to move the other 400lbs.
Thank MJ
 

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