Anyway, I'd be interested in any info about this - back to the Orange Book? Or is it covered elsewhere than the Orange Book? Hmmmm.... Thanks for any information.
If you have a Manufacturing License, than you are covered to discharge (at least by the BATFE). Same also goes if you were to have an Import License. The BATFE prefers you to not hold multiple licenses in a like classification unless neccessary. The thought is that if you manufacture or import, you will need to test/fire your own product and they allow this under your current clearance.
I have made and used many nailboards in my earlier pyro days. They were some of the most convienent devices for sequencing ques without the need to program. Now we use the FireOne system which has a resolution of 1/10 of a second and can be programmed via computer along with timecode. It is also capable of stand alone operation for firing a programmed script and pre-loaded into the main board. Technologies have changed but for the better. It's nice to be able to do a continuity check from the console of 1000's of e-matches and quickly find the bad ones without having to break out the Fluke!
If you have a Manufacturing License, than you are covered to discharge (at least by the BATFE). Same also goes if you were to have an Import License. The BATFE prefers you to not hold multiple licenses in a like classification unless neccessary. The thought is that if you manufacture or import, you will need to test/fire your own product and they allow this under your current clearance.
more about permissions: While not part of the institution, we are in a University bldg on a State University campus. We have a great relationship with the University at all levels. We do 'notifications of usage' and 'show and tells' for the campus fire marshall. We also invite peridoc visits from the surrounding townships(3) fire officials as they are the ones responding to any real issues. They all came out for the initial magazine inspection and approval. That was a party!
Beyond that, Michigan doesn't have any Licenses or Rules for what we do. And because we are on State land, any Township licensing or rules do not apply, there are none for our level of use anyway. One township does inspect what the big boys do - w/all kinds of national tours @big venue. Not sure of their reqmts.
We use 1.4g effects, and most arena's have a room in backstage that the AHJ has said is an acceptable place to store pryotechnic effects. We also have rolling magazines that are the size on a small flight case that we store the effects in, even if they are in the accepted pyro room. Overseas pyro rooms get a lot more sparse so we end up really depending on our rolling mags for safe storage.
In my state a local shooter is required to insure all the local requirements are met. I have worked with Porkchop's company many times. I have assisted many licensed Pyro guys with indoor and outdoor shows. I have never been licensed but I have a couple of good friends that have contracts for weekly shoots.
more about permissions: While not part of the institution, we are in a University bldg on a State University campus. We have a great relationship with the University at all levels. We do 'notifications of usage' and 'show and tells' for the campus fire marshall. We also invite peridoc visits from the surrounding townships(3) fire officials as they are the ones responding to any real issues. They all came out for the initial magazine inspection and approval. That was a party!
Beyond that, Michigan doesn't have any Licenses or Rules for what we do. And because we are on State land, any Township licensing or rules do not apply, there are none for our level of use anyway. One township does inspect what the big boys do - w/all kinds of national tours @big venue. Not sure of their reqmts.
Ptero, I will research this further as I cannot say definitively, but I am under the impression that registered education institutions are exempt from the BATFE requirement to have a license. My orange book is at the office so I will have to check online a little deeper for a current version. I do not know how the institution "registers", it may just be that they provide proof of their legal status when an inspection/incident were to occur. But don't take that as gospel. Even so, it's a good thing you have the license because many distributors may have an issue with you not having one despite that it may be legal.
Wisconsin is the same as Michigan, whereas they do not have additional requirements at the state level. Michigan and Wisconsin are considered to be two of the most "firework friendly" states. This is why I think they have the two largest & most successful regional guilds next to PGI, and also another reason why there are more licensed pyrotechnicians per capata in the two states than any other.
Having a great relationship with the local fire departments is a great thing. In most parts of the country, fireworks are a seasonal thing and many times you will run into departments that have little to no experience working with pyrotechnics and their guard is up......especially with indoor. Many times they will have little understanding of the NFPA codes and will mis-enforce them. Creating a proactive and open conversation helps to establish trust if your business is new to the department. Sounds like you have been working with them for awhile. Good work!
Interesting. I don't know the scoop on that. While we are on a University campus, we are now a separate stand-alone 501(c)3 non-profit and not a part of the institution in any way. I don't have anything to help shed light on that - no experience there. And yeah, as you alluded to, I don't know how that helps a vendor who requires a signed license on file in order to supply powder or matches. I THINK the ATF requires that of vendors.
Just as the newer ATF rules were coming into force (mmm, some 8 years ago), the University decided they could not support the theatre, LORT B at the time, and dropped the operation after 35 years. Some of us were able to regroup and continue as a separate organization, but we rent the space. Before the newer rules, it had been pretty easy to get powder and matches so we had not needed to pursue licensing or exemptions.
Yes, I have a deep history here back to the early 80's. That certainly does help. btw, even though they haven't officially adopted it, we use the NFPA 1126: "Standard for the Use of Pyrotechnics Before a Proximate Audience" as a basis for our notifications, spelling everything out for them. They appreciate the complete picture that creates in describing what we are doing.
I have found it rather absurd that with all of this regulation and oversight about acquisition and mixed powder storage, they don't seem to care how unmixed powder is stored. At least that is our experience. I was instructed by an Agent to remove our unmixed A/B bottle sets from the magazine and store them elsewhere with ZERO guidance or interest in whether it would be secure in any way - simply not an issue. ...out loose on shelving would have been alright with him! Nor do they care how the products are put to use. Well, I suppose they would care eventually, after some 'incident' that drew their attention.
Binary mix is very stable in A/B form and maybe that's why. Usually when explosive components in their "inert" state are stored in seperate containers but in the same area, in small quantities, the BATFE doesn't make a fuss when you hold a manufacturer's license. Binary flash is made with heavy magnesium and is also considered to be a "low-power" flash unlike some of the "German Dark" aluminum/perchlorate mixes used in large salutes.
When the oxidizer is mixed with the metallic fuel, you now have a shock, static and heat sensitive material. I can understand them having a "relaxed" perspective on the unmixed binarys, but I would not feel comfortable just leaving them out.....especially when they usually have "stupid-simple" instructions right on the bottles for mixing. As you may have learned, the BATFE can sometimes be a major pain when it comes to the rules. Many things you would think are common sense, they don't care about, while they can make a huge deal out of other very minor-risk type issues.
My partners and I have 16 large magazines. Most of them are converted 40' shipping containers while some are actual cinder buildings. Our facility is located in rural area, with video surveilance. Each magazine has a very robust and secure locking mechanism that the BATFE agents have accepted for over 20yrs. This year they have a new chief agent who is trying to force us to change the system. The cost of materials and labor to do so on all my magazines is approx $10k. I have applied for a variance, so we will see what happens. For my day job, I am an engineer and I would love the opportunity to prove to them that the system we have is plenty sufficient.
For us, most of our business is for outdoor municipal events and such. We order large quantities of flash based salutes in bulk. If I have 200 cases of 3" bulk salutes and 200 seperate cases of 3" peony effect shells in a type 4 magazine, it's illegal. But then if I mix the two together and have 400 cases of 50/50 mixed salutes and peonys in the same mag, it's legal. If the container where to ignite, there would be no difference in the size and damage of the blast, despite the config change.....but it's legal and that's what the agents want to see.
Well, I'm not licensed, but I did take a class once that certifies me to operate minor pyro. I've done some powder mixing in my day. This was of course the day when we used our own black powder and not flash powder to get the smoke pot effects.
I've done some minor pyro (flash/smoke pots, gerbs, minor fire fx) and I got to intern for a group who used indoor fireworks. Watching them set that up was the most fascinating thing I ever saw...
We still manufacture black powder for use in many of our effects. It's cheaper once setup to do so, and you can control the burn time. For a hobby, I make black powder end-burning rockets that are far more powerful than those made by companies such as "Estes". The down side is that stick rockets can have unpredictable flight paths, that we rarely can use them in public displays.
I too enjoy watching other companies setup there display's. It provides an opportunity to learn various techniques as well as adding to the mystery of what you might see.
Ohio licensed Exhibitor's Assistant here. Work under a friend of mine who is licensed in Outdoor, Indoor, and Flames...all 3 separate licenses here in OH.
I've worked primarily outdoor shoots but have done a good bit of work on a few arena tours with a certain rock orchestra that tours around Christmas So with that I've worked on multiple types of flame units as well as just about every indoor effect that exists.
Toyed around with taking the State Test to become an Exhibitor myself but haven't had much time to do it yet. Maybe someday!
I would.....however, the costs in operating independent can be large if you intend to do so publicly. Insurance is a killer unless you have established a clientele that can support it. I have heard that Ohio has some unique regulations at the state level. I have several friends who display and distribute there.
I have done "pyromusicals" to a certain rock orchestra's music for a few events but never with them live. I would love the opportunity though!
I got my license last year for indoor use, so I could be responsible for a few smaller things in a show (flash pots, double shot canes and the like). I need to go to a class of some sort in order to re-up my license, which is a great excuse.
This is one of those fields where getting the certification puts you in demand for certain jobs, and makes you valuable. Not many have it.
I would.....however, the costs in operating independent can be large if you intend to do so publicly. Insurance is a killer unless you have established a clientele that can support it.
That's the truth! However, we have been lucky enough to work under 3 seperate large parent companies who cover the insurance, product, storage, and majority of the gear and equipment.
Yes we do...Ohio has some laws at state level but then refers to the NFPA Red Book for most. Then you get some Fire Departments in the state who like to expand on the NFPA Red Book rules to make up their own insane regulations.
The thing that is nice in Ohio is you are required to have a state licensed exhibitor at every show that has pyro. The majority of the touring pyro companies do not license their guys in all 50 states so in states requiring it such as Ohio, they just have the venue hire a local. This is how I got involved in the shows that I have. Some guys simply show up, deal with the local fire inspector and approve or disapprove setups and collect the paycheck. Some are far more hands on and work hand and hand with the tour pyro as it's their butt in the end of something goes bad!
Hi, Gopher here. I'm primarily a lighting tech and designer in N.C. but I've got a decent Pyro background. I worked in Ohio under another Pyro's license as an assistant Operator for a while. After that, I ended up being the official Pyro guy at my college for four years, and established a rule book, which i believe is still in use. and did a little outside work on some small Indies films with a couple of small companies in the area. I gave it up a few years ago when people started trying to hire me out as an independent. I found too many people trying to cut too many corners on safety,and I didn't want to be part of that.
N.C. just established it's First Pyro license and test along with a lot of regulations some of which are still being discussed in the Legislature. I have taken the close proximity course and have been debating taking the test for my license, but I currently have no interest in obtaining a full license or going for my ATF license. I miss having a finger on the button sometimes and Pyro was a lot of fun, and a lot of responsibility. I've gotten into the education racket recently and now I'm watching out for the safety for others.
Any tips or tricks that haven't already been mentioned for practicalpyrosafety practices would be greatly appreciated. I'm not teaching a course this would just be to expand my own knowledge and safety
I worked for LunaTech PyroPak off-and-on for the entire length of time that they existed. They started out as a lighting and stage company in Huntsville Alabama and eventually split into 2 separate companies: Theatrical Lighting Systems (TLS) run by David Milly, and PyroPak run by Tom DeWille. They moved out of the city in the early 80's for legal reasons and operated in Owens Crossroads after that, about 15 miles outside of Huntsville.
I pretty much did everything there: Bottling Powder, Assembling controllers and cables, Product development, Press operator, everything. The buildings were very interesting with Styrofoam walls so accidents would not be contained in the building or employees could use anywhere in the wall as a quick exit. There were about 30 buildings scattered about, they were small and specific to an operation, again so any accident would not burn down the whole complex.
We made custom devices for a large number of touring acts including Kiss and Micheal Jackson. I traveled and setup pyro for some of Ted Nugents largest shows in Detroit, Orlando and Los Angeles.
I also wrote the computer program that kept all the PyroPak formulas, it was used for the companies operations for the last half of their history. A very useful program that would provide all the weights and measures whenever an employee mixed up a batch of any formulations. I still have those recipes here on this computer.
PyroPak was sold to LaMaitre a few years back and was recently sold to PyroTek.
As a result of PyroPak being in the area, there are a lot of pyrotechnicians around here. Many of you may know a pyro that went by the name "Hammer" who has toured with the biggest acts all over the world. He works with us in our theater about once a month. Another guy that has toured with some big acts works with us has the nick name of "Pyro"
Any tips or tricks that haven't already been mentioned for practicalpyrosafety practices would be greatly appreciated. I'm not teaching a course this would just be to expand my own knowledge and safety
I would recommend obtaining a "Display Operator" book from PGI, mentioned above. I think it is around $30 and is a great tool regarding safety. Otherwise, feel free to ask any questions and we can try to assist you.
When I teach the shooter's training class, something I always thought valuable was our demonstrations of the potential hazards. We would take our smallest common shell 3", load into a mortar with electrical match, and then place a 3/4" plywood board over the mouth of the mortar. I would then ask participants what they think the effect will be. Most will say that it will blow up the mortar or hit the board and fly wild. The real effect is that the shell punches a perfect hole in the plywood, goes up to it's normal height and display's as normal. This is great for demonstrating the power of the shell from velocity and showing the potential risk of even our smallest common shell.
We do demonstrations of "flower pots" where we remove the lift charge of a shell and electronically fire it in the mortar to show new participants what happens when the lift charge fails and the risks related to it as well as "Hangfires" where the shell fuse lights, but does not initiate the lift until moments later. This helps to train people as to why we do not expose any portion of our bodies over "live" or "unverified" mortars.
Another demonstration is our catastophic failure demo. We will again take our smallest common shell size of 3", salute, and intentionally load it upside down in an HDPE mortar, buried 75% in the ground and another example of a mortar that is unburried. This is yet another great example of the destructive power when things go wrong.
Note: that all of these demonstrations are performed by licensed, certified and seasoned pyrotechnicians. All examples are fired electronically and from a safe distance, ususally behind blast shields.
Clothing: Prefer fire retardant like nomex, or at least 100% cotton. No polyester blends as they will melt to the skin. Steel-toe, ankle support boots, ansisafety glasses, hardhat and hearing protection, good pair of work gloves.
I actually use a loggers helmet like this one with my safety glasses under the shield.
Fusing: I say this under safety because we use some many different types of ignition such as electronic match, black match, quick match, visco fuse, etc. Doing a demonstration of the difference in speed is crucial so that folks will not be surprised when they light their first quick match that can burn up to 60' a second....although most may burn about 10'-20'/second due to kinking in the tube or poor quality.
Something that gets over looked a lot, that inexperienced people will do is related to the mortars.
Common mortar materials are:
Cardboard: Original style of mortar, not recommended. Many times the interior spiral wound will deteriorate and cause binding when loading/ejecting shells.
Steel: Still commonly used. DO NOT USE with salutes, but are fine with just about any other shell. Very heavy and expensive, which is one reason why they are becoming less in the field.
HDPE, High Density Polyethylene: Most common and my favorite. Lighter than steel but still heavy in racks. Can be reloaded multiple times during a display and do not "shrapnel", but shreds in the case of a catastrophic failure.
Fiberglass: Becoming the new standard. Very light and robust, shrapnel is minimal in a catastrophic failure, recommended for minimal reloading during a display.
Almost always, I get asked about PVC and this is why I added the mortar types to the discussion. DO NOT USE PVC. PVC can not handle the heat of multiple shells and will distort, leading to a failure. It will also send terrible shrapnel in the instance of a failure. Also PVC attracts static electricity, which is very bad.
This is not comprehensive, but does list some key areas to consider in regards to safety. By far the most important is site safety, which includes your pyro-team, perimeter security and the safety of public spectators and property, and being knowledgeable on your "table of distances".
I intentionally did not elaborate on indoor/proximate effects because there are so many limitations by venue and each effect and manufacturer have different specs.
I want to really thank you guys for this thread. It's such a dangerous topic and really made me and the rest of the CB staff nervous when it first appeared. Instead of being a nightmare to moderate with posts like "How do I blow up stuff?" It's been nothing but professional talk, really educational, and a great view into what it takes to be part of the world of making things go boom. Thanks Disco and company for keeping this thread on track. Keep it up it's a great read.
Thanks gaff, I am also pleased in the responses. It appears that there are quite a few of us here that have had some great experiences with the topic.
I appreciate the forum. "We pyro's" take pride in our work, and appreciate opportunities where we can talk openly about it and not be wrapped in with the many people who have damaged it's image. Most of us deeply care about safety and doing things legally.
Ever since I was a child fighting for real estate on the grass at my local town's 4th of July celebration, I would get excited for hours as we waited for the fireworks to begin. We would talk and play games with other folks on their blankets that surrounded us and share in the community experience. When that first shell would eject from the mortar, the excitment that would sweep the crowd was intense and intoxicating. Then the shells would display and everyone around me was in awe as they watched the bright flashes of brilliant color, heard the noise of the shell break and felt the raw power thumping on their chest.
I can't explain it well enough with words, but in just about any part of this country on the 4th of July, you can feel the American Unity and American culture as pyro's take to the fields with flare's in hand. It was those childhood experiences and that feeling that is still shared at parks across the country, that led me to pursue at least one of my dreams.
HDPE, High Density Polyethylene: Most common and my favorite. Lighter than steel but still heavy in racks. Can be reloaded multiple times during a display and do not "shrapnel", but shreds in the case of a catastrophic failure.
Hi!
I am a Swedish pyro. Work mostly with display fireworks, pyromusicals and pyromusicals with close proximity effects for special needs.
I had to respond to DiscoBoxer.
I hope you are not meaning what I think you are. During a show placing a new shell in a used mortar is extremely dangerous. The most obvius, if you would miss that it misfired and the shell is still in the tube thats easy enough to understand why its dangerous. What if you missed that some of the tubes next to the ones you were planning to reload misfired? You yourself pointed out the risk of hangfires. However the most likely and easy thing to miss would be the fact that more often that not the little cup that holds lift will be stuck at the bottom of the mortar, missing to clean that out and then placing a shell on top of it could end in a catastrophe when the shell wont reach the intended altitude.
I hope this was misdirected since you seem to be experienced and reasonable but hopefully some one else wont do the same misread that I did and act on it. I have seen people online talk about it but no professionals that I know of do it. If you can bring the shells you can bring enough mortars.
You bring up excellent points that are good for discussion.
The perfect and safest scenario is that shells are fired electronically with a mortar dedicated to every shell in the display. However due to economics in a business that is highly competitive, many businesses will in fact reload mortars during a manual fired display. I usually only see this technique used on small to medium sized hand fired display's and in most cases are operated by local municipalities such as fire department staff who are exempt from display licensing through their municipality.
In the USA, we are regulated by NFPA code and this code allows for reloading with proper precautions. Usually on this type of display you will have a "shooter", a "clean-out" person, a "loader", and a "line-spotter" for every active line.
The most important is the "swing-load" method performed by the loader. As with all pyrotechnics, no portion of the body should be exposed to the mouth of any device or mortar. Then lowering the shell into the mortar via it's fuse (for small shells) or drop string (for larger shells), while still keeping all body parts clear.
The shooter has one of the biggest responsibilities and that is igniting the shell and providing verification that a shell clears the mortar. If there is a problem with the mortar such as a hangfire, the shooter is to notify the "clean-out" person to mark the mortar so that it is to not be used for the rest of the display, or until the mortar can be cleared safely.
After the shooter fires the shells and moves down the line, the clean-out person follows with a "clean-out stick" and clears the lift cups left behind in the mortars. The loader will then remove shells from the "auto-closing ready box" nearby, and proceed to loading them into the mortars. Once the shooter has gotten to the end of the line, the shooter will return to the beginning of the line to start the next round.
In my many years, I have never seen embers left behind from a previous shell pre-ignite a shell in a mortar that has been recently reloaded. However, it would be foolish to assume that such a possibility could not happen and this is one major reason why we load using the "swing-load" method.
One of the biggest challenges is the slight discrepancy between shells. In most cases shells are handmade and have slight variables in their diameter. Usually caused by the paisting process or the fuse that runs down the side of the shell. There are times where a shell won't load freely or without friction and will not sink all the way to the bottom of the mortar. If this happens and the shell is fired without first being allowed to rest at the bottom of the mortar, the gap underneath the shell will reduce the amount of pressure required to lift the shell to proper height, and it will result in a dangerous "low-break".
This is remediated by the loader using a loader stick. Again without exposing any portion of their body, they will use the stick (typically light plastic with 90 degree bend about 3' long) to gently assist the shell down in the mortar. In the rare case that the shell will not go down all the way into the mortar even with light assistance, the mortar is then treated like any other hangfire and the mortar is marked and not used until it can be safely cleared.
I will state that reloading is not ideal nor is it my preferred method and if it can be avoided, it should. Here in the States this is not always the case and is still a common method used in the field. If proper technique and experience is employed, then it can be done reasonably safe and is supported by NFPA code.
Without going through a complete training session on pro fireworks and shooting, it can be difficult for me to see some details and exceptions that may be needed to provide a safe shooting experience. In no way is the posting intended to be comprehensive and complete or as a substitute for a proper certification course. It is not recommended to try any of these techniques mentioned in this forum without proper training and supervision by a qualified pyrotechnician.
